The healing power of forgiveness

topic posted Mon, August 24, 2009 - 8:43 AM by  Obafemi
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Have you ever made a mistake? What was it like when you expected someone to punish you but they taught you a valuable lesson instead? In this video, Obafemi teaches how forgiveness can build trust, strengthen relationships and inspire greatness in ourselves and our loved ones. Visit www.ObafemiO.com to register for the upcoming Acts of Forgiveness Community Ritual.

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Obafemi
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    Re: The healing power of forgiveness

    Mon, August 24, 2009 - 10:39 AM
    lovely thought, great lessons. i can see how this might tie into ayahuasca in a round-about way...
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      Re: The healing power of forgiveness

      Mon, August 24, 2009 - 12:12 PM
      aya showed me that there was no such thing as a mistake...
      and that forgiveness can enforce egoic thinking instead of liberate one from it...
      seems to work really well though at reinforcing the ego in a way that perpetuates the need for forgiveness.

      being liberated from the need for forgiveness and its endless cycle of salvation from our mistakes is nice...
      there are some interesting questions one can ask that leads to that liberation...
      but thats just what a plant taught me... pfff...
      • CG
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        Re: The healing power of forgiveness

        Mon, August 24, 2009 - 3:43 PM

        I feel like it relates to healing which for me is a big slice of the work. Maybe not the old Christian idea of forgiveness, but in some other interpretation of what to do with the past that haunts us. It's interesting to imagine it differently than it's typically held, the way where it's kind of like keeping the hurt, but also saying you forgive the other for it. What if you could free yourself from the hurt, release it somehow, but in a different way than using the old version of forgiveness? Maybe in some way where there's no need to lay any harm at the others feet.

        Past hurt and harm are a big deal. Somewhere, maybe in some kind of forgiveness, is a way to help heal
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          Re: The healing power of forgiveness

          Mon, August 24, 2009 - 4:27 PM
          i tend to just accept things any more, and do what i can to make changes instead of forgiveness... it doesnt need to really go into the picture at all for me.
          i have noticed that for some the need for it is so damn strong.

          "Maybe in some way where there's no need to lay any harm at the others feet. "

          exactly if there is no other there is no you, there is no victim there is no you to make a mistake... there is oneness and movement and awareness however...
          • CG
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            Re: The healing power of forgiveness

            Mon, August 24, 2009 - 9:02 PM

            I'm still conscious of others. I haven't graduated from the, it's all one, class. :) Honestly, I have to deal in the reality I'm in and for me there's quite a population out there that seems quite real. I can toss around the idea of unity and oneness, but when working with the medicines I hardly ever have time for considering concepts or any activity that isn't related to the moment I'm in. Some things I can do and so I do those, like not getting engaged with the varieties of darkness when I'm on an errand or working. It's all just darkness, kind of like it's all one thing, but mostly it's a matter of staying focused on the task at hand and not taking the time to differentiate one bit from another. If I stop and stare it'll start up the ladder of manifestation, story and noise and all, so I don't do it, but just feel for what it is I'm meant to be about and do that.

            Last week I was working and the darkness was so thick I thought it was a problem with my vision until I realized I was in a downpour or a blizzard of driving rain drops of the stuff. When I figured it out I felt for the path I was meant to be on like you would in the dark with your foot and with your hands held out in front of you. As soon as I did that I picked up on something calling of shining or whatever and pulled my virtual collar up and headed into the storm. It took a while to clear up some and I couldn't get through it without getting wet so to speak, but I trusted my family and let it cling to me and taste me. It turns out it was necessary to bring some back after I did what I was sent for and so I was glad I had just let it happen. If I had tried to find a path through it without getting touched I'd have never got anything done. When I had found the place I was called in to find and saw what it was I'd been sent for I whispered a prayer,

            Here upon love, here upon forgiveness, here upon healing....

            I did some work then and when it began to shift and was in the hands of another I made my way back out. My prayer wasn't what the dictionary means when it tells you what forgiveness is, but what I mean. It's like a thumbprint on a glass. It's not the words themselves that matter, but the energetic signature, the print of the concept if you were to lift it from my heart with something and hold it up. The mandala it would make, which is still just a picture, but a more precise one. It's the intent of the prayer, regardless of the supposed general meaning of the words. It's the feeling of it in my heart made visible somehow, not made to conform to the word, and the word is just a name for the true feeling inside me. That feeling, that faith, is what is getting passed with the words to another. Forgiveness is important to me, in my own sense of what it holds, which is what I pour into it in the long quiet moments of contemplation and care.

            Sorry to ramble... Cheers.
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              Re: The healing power of forgiveness

              Mon, August 24, 2009 - 9:23 PM
              "I'm still conscious of others. I haven't graduated from the, it's all one, class. :) Honestly, I have to deal in the reality I'm in and for me there's quite a population out there that seems quite real. I can toss around the idea of unity and oneness, but when working with the medicines I hardly ever have time for considering concepts or any activity that isn't related to the moment I'm in. Some things I can do and so I do those, like not getting engaged with the varieties of darkness when I'm on an errand or working. It's all just darkness, kind of like it's all one thing, but mostly it's a matter of staying focused on the task at hand and not taking the time to differentiate one bit from another. If I stop and stare it'll start up the ladder of manifestation, story and noise and all, so I don't do it, but just feel for what it is I'm meant to be about and do that. "

              but what is that consciousness of other? something we kinda take from granted... there it is but what is it?

              for me it was realizing that it was a trick awareness plays to direct us towards furthering our awareness of that which we are but where not aware of, and looking at why seems to be some times a very dramatic process, that the cultivation fo thus awareness liberates us from.

              and that honestly is a real mouth full.

              "Honestly, I have to deal in the reality I'm in and for me there's quite a population out there that seems quite real. I can toss around the idea of unity and oneness, but when working with the medicines I hardly ever have time for considering concepts or any activity that isn't related to the moment I'm in"

              dealing with reality is dealign with oneness, and our varying degrees of awareness of that oneness... i would say... real has little to do with it out side of our lack of current awareness, that makes it real to us at that time. we dont have time because we are not making the time via out intention to developing said awareness. struggling with dualism is an addictive past time most of us seem to have been indoctrinated in early on, perhaps its a form of conditioning we developed mistaknely after being weened from breast feeding but i digress...

              for me it was never considering a concept, though contemplation is good... but it was discovery through finding a way out of cyclic patterns of suffering... the oneness emerges, casts light and the shadows and darkness becomes apperhent as never really existing, but as just a way for us to realize like the dellusion of "other" that there is something that the light of our individual awarness within the one has not yet cast its light upon...

              and it would seem that the very act of sitting with said darkness and opening ones heart to it.... opens us to a deeper a further awareness and it disolves dellusion.
              • CG
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                Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                Mon, August 24, 2009 - 9:56 PM


                "but what is that consciousness of other? something we kinda take from granted... there it is but what is it?"

                Nicely put...

                I definitely am at the mercy of what consciousness I'm in when working. It's good to have it tossed about like this. Wondering about wondering and looking at the assumptions and concepts and ideas I carry with me into the work. I think I'm sort of settled in some ways. I don't push to hard at some aspects of my thinking or ideas. Some I'm just comfortable with.

                Sometimes my ideas are exploded by the medicine and sometimes I'm just asked to examine how I'm thinking or what I'm thinking about. It happens often enough that I just sort of wait for the correction or shift and deal with it when it comes up. I'm not very intentional about my own puzzles or quirks. There are lots of things that happen that are meant for me, directed at me specifically and I usually notice why and shift as best I can. I feel pretty sure I'll be handled that way because I have been in the past and just try to be a good sport about it.

                The big message for me in that same work I described was about praying for the people. The importance of it somehow. i trust that what's being asked of me is appropriate to where I am and just try to follow through on what I'm being taught. I'm definitely a dualism guy. I'm me, and I have teachers and family and friends and until I'm asked to see it differently will happily go along with it being that way.

                Cheers LLB, you've always been an interesting and curious guy and I enjoy your company.
                • Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                  Mon, August 24, 2009 - 9:58 PM
                  Great discussion! Thanks!
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                    CG
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                    Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                    Mon, August 24, 2009 - 10:08 PM
                    Hey Will, :)

                    You might be interested in this bit LLB. In a recent work as I was in a very intense place and I realized something profound that has affected me deeply and once I understood it, it's helped me to be less reactionary and combative. Not like battle, but just in the sense of being defensive. The place I was in was familiar from many works before, a very particular stage in the process for me, it's always been a challenge. I realized that this area, this zone, this place of very intense responsiveness, this vast place, was all inside me.

                    I know to some it may seem like duh no kidding moment, but for me to really understand that while in it was huge for me. This conversation re-awoke that memory, and that wondrous realization. I've calmed down since then considerably because I don't want to struggle unnecessarily with aspects of me, parts of me, what's happening inside of me. Like, why start a fight with my own stuff. :)
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                      Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                      Mon, August 24, 2009 - 11:03 PM
                      "I definitely am at the mercy of what consciousness I'm in when working. It's good to have it tossed about like this. Wondering about wondering and looking at the assumptions and concepts and ideas I carry with me into the work. I think I'm sort of settled in some ways. I don't push to hard at some aspects of my thinking or ideas. Some I'm just comfortable with. "

                      i hear yah... some things like duality, we can defintely get comfortable with... it can work for us in so many ways... but its a relationship with the mystery thats interesting... in some ways if we get to comfortable, the mystery starts to think we are becoming complacent and will throw us some curve balls just to get us into the creative flow again.
                      Trungpa made this great alalogy to rest stops... they are dead ends and they are allways present and eventually we get tempted to settle down there, until of coarse somthign moves us out of it... or some one ; )

                      "Like, why start a fight with my own stuff. :) "

                      great question... any one we fight or anything we fight to me is the whole which includes me, and in so many ways is me, but also that or who i fight... which i beleive is what allows for liberation from the suffering that comes from fighting... but with out that awareness there is no liberation and we just fight and suffer for it... another way of putting liberation is freedom... isnt that soem thing worth fighting for? but once again thats the paradoxical nature of the struggle itself...

                      i recall one evening with medicine where i was being eaten and squished by a snake... i was scared shitless, i kept sayign to my self over and over again... " is this a postive expereince or a negative expereince, is this a postive entity or a negative entity...?!"
                      then i was eaten... there was no more struggle... because i lost... lol... i was eaten... and then i realized that i got to be the snake, i transformed into the snake and had a kundalini experince... the oneness share with me that there was no positive or negative just energy doing what it needed to do... that was my first taste of nonduality, and i carry that gentally and offer it to others...

                      always good talking to you as well brother... you have been in my thoughts.

                      thanks will...
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                        Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                        Mon, August 24, 2009 - 11:04 PM
                        oh yes and...

                        "I definitely am at the mercy of what consciousness I'm in when working."

                        So you are at the mercy to yourself? interesting...
                        ; )
                        • CG
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                          Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                          Tue, August 25, 2009 - 1:25 PM

                          This is a bit from something I study.

                          The body is a limit imposed on the universal communication that is an eternal property of mind. But communication is internal. Mind reaches to itself. It's not made up of different parts, which reach to each other. It does not go out. Within itself it has no limits, and there is nothing outside it. It encompasses everything. It encompasses you entirely, you within it and it within you. There is nothing else, anywhere or ever.

                          Cheers LLB.
                          • CG
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                            Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                            Tue, August 25, 2009 - 1:34 PM

                            When talking about medicine work I try to be accurate about what ideas I can actually hold onto in those realms by describing what my experience really was. I may be able to sit with other big ideas as I study, but I try to describe the ideas I can honestly live and hold while I'm in there working. There's an evolution of my abilities as certain ideas become more firm in me, but for example, the recognition that one aspect of the work was all happening inside me, as vast as it seemed at the time, was the edge of my ability so far to carry with me some of those lofty concepts I study and open up to in daily life.
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                              Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                              Tue, August 25, 2009 - 6:14 PM
                              indeed forgiveness is not a mistake either... it tends to create a self replicating feed back loop that perpetuates forgiveness and the need to forgive ie mistakes... it serves a purpose just as the misconception of mistakes serves a purpose...
                              those self replicating feed back loops are doosies to get out of too... i might add... tricky ones they are... and we get indoctrinated into them at a pretty early age...




                              "There's an evolution of my abilities as certain ideas become more firm in me, but for example, the recognition that one aspect of the work was all happening inside me, as vast as it seemed at the time, was the edge of my ability so far to carry with me some of those lofty concepts I study and open up to in daily life."

                              i hear yah...
                              its funny i was reflecting about this conversation and thinking back to how these awareness's i have emerged in the first place. they were not lofty ideas nor were they coming from any books on philosophy or anything... honestly it was through working with specific substances when i was younger. things like nonduality and oneness and selflessness ect just emerged out of the experiences and i explored them further through more and then validated them through conversations with mystics and yoigis and spiritual teachers and books. I have a buddy and he seems to think that i got all of this from reading or workshops or lectures or something.
                              william james one the founders of modern consciousness research learned much the same way. i think these things just happen to people if thats what they need when the time is right for them to move on to something else, another way of perceiving the world that will benefit others ultimately.
                              as far as forgiveness goes i think that its pretty necessary for people as is salvation, .they need it... my only concern is that everything is temporary including the need for salvation and forgiveness, but we can become so attached to those ways of perceiving and relating that we create suffering from that which was helping us...
                              im really not sure if a developmental model can really be applied to it... but i tend to think that forgiveness, duality and salvation concepts in religious and spiritual thought can in some ways hinder development or at least create a very slow progression. though i know thats a bold statement... but from a transpersonal stand point it does not allow for certain developments of consciousness within the individual and in that respect in a way it holds us all back...
                              • Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                                Wed, August 26, 2009 - 9:58 AM
                                I think there is another way to look at it as well. We are all painted with the same brush so to speak. Unfortunately we sometimes have a hard time remembering this and get caught in a cul-de-sac of understanding especially when faced with a triggering experience. At these times my personal reasoning goes out the window and I'm back to square one. If I'm able to see it coming then I have a chance of side-stepping the oncoming catastrophe. A meditative mindset certainly helps in navigating the terrain of life but setbacks and challenges are to be expected. Could it be just as instructive to view everything as a mistake rather than the other way around? If I'm a mistake and your a mistake and everything that exists is a mistake does this not foster camaraderie of a humble expression. Perhaps at times it in interesting to look at life from both views - I can see the benefit in both.

                                D
      • Re: The healing power of forgiveness

        Tue, August 25, 2009 - 2:55 PM
        "aya showed me that there was no such thing as a mistake... "

        I think that is great.

        Then certainly forgiveness is not a mistake...

        D
        • CG
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          Re: The healing power of forgiveness

          Tue, August 25, 2009 - 7:16 PM

          William James learned mostly at school, with books.

          Here's a brief bio.

          Henry James, the father of William James, sought to provide his children with the sort of education that might enable them some day to outdistance their countrymen both in erudition and in breadth of knowledge. To this end, he enrolled them in fine schools, obtained for them gifted tutors, and saw to it that they frequented museums and attended lectures and the theater with regularity. William and two of his siblings would give fruit to their father's liberal educational efforts.

          William went to the Academy, precursor of the University of Geneva. Of the four children, William had the best match: he studied science and mathematics. William James attended schools in the United States, England, France, Switzerland, and Germany, and was also privately tutored; became familiar with the major museums and galleries in every city the family visited; acquired fluency in five languages, met, listened to, and talked to such frequenters of the James household as Thoreau, Emerson, Greeley, Hawthorne, Carlyle, Tennyson, and J. S. Mill; and through his father's influence became widely read and well versed in philosophy. James began his studies at Harvard at the same time that the American Civil War began to rage.

          Finally he returned and at twenty-seven completed medical school. He made no effort to practice because of his poor health, but spent his time studying psychology, sunk in gloom about his prospects and troubled by the profound differences between his scientific views of the mind and the world and his father's mystical and spiritual ones. In 1870, at twenty-eight, after nearly a year in these doldrums, he had an abrupt emotional crisis very much like his father's.

          1879 - Begins teaching philosophy.
          1880 - Assistant professor of philosophy.
          1885 - Professor of philosophy

          His aim, however, was not to defend religion by scientific proof but to serve a volley in his long "battle of the Absolute" with such philosophical antagonists as Royce. In that battle, against naturalists, on the one hand, and philosophers whom James called "refined supernaturalists," on the other, James created for himself a special position. He was a "piecemeal supernaturalist," he said, one who "admits miracles and providential leadings, and finds no intellectual difficulty in mixing the ideal and the real worlds together."
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            Re: The healing power of forgiveness

            Tue, August 25, 2009 - 7:34 PM
            heheh... well... actually william james learned or rather should we say relearned everything through his experiments with nitrous oxide...
            IMHO... N20 teaches you more about egolessness and nonduality more then damn near anything else... my own experiences i discovered mirrored his own.
            yes he went to school... but it was his expereinces with nitrous that fueled his focus.
          • CG
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            Re: The healing power of forgiveness

            Tue, August 25, 2009 - 7:34 PM

            I think we're embedded in a chain of events and lives that makes our particular moment possible. We don't appear out of thin air and have special and interesting revelations. We arrive in the midst of an ongoing process and it's that process, that life, is important and valid from the point of view of the one living it. Not really knowing how we appear at a particular moment in the big mash-up of the organic circus, it's fair to say we each do the best we can with what's in front of us and what we're able can track down in our immediate environment. Given our environment is the primary stuff of possibility, the grocery store of options, and most peoples is different, I prefer to cheer someone on and encourage them to take heart amidst their circumstances, rooting for them as they go.
            • CG
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              Re: The healing power of forgiveness

              Tue, August 25, 2009 - 7:41 PM

              His access to nitrous oxide was part of what was available to a Harvard professor. Which came first, the professor or the Nitrous?
              A lot the consciousness explorers gained access to the labs and funding for their research through the colleges they were associated with.

              What came first, the College or the rebel researcher?

              :)
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                Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                Wed, August 26, 2009 - 11:17 AM
                "
                What came first, the College or the rebel researcher? "

                some things are just co-emergent...
                • Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                  Wed, August 26, 2009 - 12:14 PM
                  Funny how ayahuasca has shown LLB that forgiveness isn't necessary... I am tempted to say that ayahuasca has shown me that it is vitally important. Realistically, she only shows one themselves. We can all have our personal truths. For those who have the blessed ability to release their anger easily, perhaps it is not an issue. But in my observation, the vast majority of people nurture grudges and internally hold onto their woundings from others and self. And so the vast majority of people, forgiveness is a vital thing in the path to healing.
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                    Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                    Wed, August 26, 2009 - 12:38 PM
                    yeah totally individual truth is a real focus to me...

                    "But in my observation, the vast majority of people nurture grudges and internally hold onto their woundings from others and self. And so the vast majority of people, forgiveness is a vital thing in the path to healing."

                    it can also just perpetuate the problem and a need for further healing... but i suppose that depends on the individual...
                    • CG
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                      Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                      Wed, August 26, 2009 - 3:22 PM

                      I imagine ideas as being in an emerging state and being shared and refined in the interplay of relationships. Like somewhere in the effort to connect and live in harmony our ideas are sculpted by us as we go to help accomplish that. I realize it's my point of view, that I see the movement toward harmony and peace in what's going on around me and that it shapes and colors what I'm seeing. It seems like I hold certain things to be true and that I compile evidence for that truth by my perspective of what's appearing in the world.

                      It's kind of like asking the world to fit into these truths I hold, and yet they arose in my relationship to the world and so in a way are formed together with the world I see. It seems like the opposite is to allow the world to tell me what it is, which I do when I listen to it, only I shape what it says against the things I feel inside me. Maybe the world would prefer that it be the author of what I see without my interference, or meddling, but I'm an artist on some levels and won't give up my art.

                      Seriously rambling now... :)
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                        Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                        Wed, August 26, 2009 - 4:08 PM
                        "Maybe the world would prefer that it be the author of what I see without my interference, or meddling, but I'm an artist on some levels and won't give up my art. "

                        in my experience if you step out of the way you see you are the world and the world is you, theres no you to meddle or be the author and there never was... and thats when you really seem to find yourself... which seems to be a trend through out the majority of the worlds mysticism...
                    • Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                      Wed, August 26, 2009 - 6:08 PM
                      What is the difference between a behavior which is a "mistake" and one which is a "problem"? If forgiveness isn't a mistake, because nothing is a "mistake", why is it then a "problem". Seems like you are using a different word to put a similar negative connotation on forgiveness which seem to be counter to your teaching.

                      Certainly in a world where nothing is a mistake forgiveness has a place.

                      D
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                        Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                        Wed, August 26, 2009 - 9:04 PM
                        thats the funny thing about perceived negativity.
                        could be boiled down to a desired out come vs an undesired outcome. or an out come that is past ones current awarenes and understanding.
                        it is indeed not a mistake but it creates a specific out come karma literally means action... and here you have a action & reaction. its not a mistake to shoot ones self in the head but it can pose some problems if ones goal is to live...
                        but we do seem to learn from problem sovling.

                        i have always found it interesting thr value judgments that people place on problems... and that i more specificly put on problems... some people live, absolutely live to solve problems, its very exciting for them.. many games are based ont he joy of problem solving. it goes the same with challenges... some people hate challeneges.. and will say ah man life is a real challenge right now... and yet a challenge in some other contexts are viewed as a great time... a contest, a race a way of proving or achiving prime efficacy. whcih goes to show that to some a problem a mistake even or a challenge is valueless outside of the value we place upon it.
                        i personally place little value on forgiveness yet understand that it has value to others yet have concern for their well being in doing so. it is not a mistake that they do so but as i said i does pose specific problems seen from the value system that i hold in place... which of coarse may b e different from theirs.. and thus commication is required for mutal eddification and perpetuation of said mystery of life... cheers...
                        • CG
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                          Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                          Wed, August 26, 2009 - 9:25 PM
                          Shot in the head! That's dramatic...

                          Maybe it worth considering from another viewpoint LLB. If a particular religious group or person holds salvation and forgiveness as important, but you feel differently about the value of those ideas, can you also make room for them having the idea as part of their faith and in a respectful way and without comparing it to being shot in the head?

                          I feel pretty confident that you can be honestly gracious without being patronizing where others beliefs are concerned. Mystics and yogi's and some books may agree on the best way to enlightenment, and none of them pay my bills. They don't mow my lawn or fix my truck or make me breakfast. They may be interesting guides when I'm in the mood, but I actually live with other people. Artists and builders and mechanics and social workers and grocery clerks. They have a wide variety of ideas about how to get through life and not many read obscure texts on breathing. They're regular old making a living human beans, and I love them. I practice my spirituality silently with them, and the only thing that they notice about it is how it feels to be around me. I don't ask them about their beliefs and then ridicule them for having them. I think even here on tribe there's room to let some ideas breath without making them sound small in a universe of loftier thinking.
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                    CG
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                    Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                    Wed, August 26, 2009 - 5:39 PM

                    I also find it very helpful Elfin.
                    • Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                      Wed, August 26, 2009 - 9:19 PM
                      Me too, CG. For myself, forgiveness has been vital. Personal opinion: forgiveness is the path to obtain a completely clear vessel for love to flow through. A while back I made an effort to try to have empathy with those I hated most (GWB regime) and love them. I couldn't do it, no matter how much I tried... there was too much anger on my part. But once I forgave them, the anger lost most of its charge. And I was able to find love for those I had hated, in a non-hippy / not-wanting-to-cuddle sort of way.

                      I look around the world and see so much conflict. Some of it has been passed down for generations between various nations and sects of peoples. Without forgiveness, the conflict is an endless loop of revenge, then revenge for the revenge, with more revenge for that revenge. Though occassionally a truce is made, no end to the conflict will come... only a pause. Only forgiveness can give full resolution.

                      I don't think forgiveness is a big deal. I think it is THE deal. This is the lesson that humanity needs to learn at this time.
                      • CG
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                        Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                        Wed, August 26, 2009 - 9:42 PM

                        My hope is that when an idea is expressed as being as important to you as this is that we can treat it with care. I feel much the same way about forgiveness. I have my own concept of it from my studies and life experiences which is different from the classic definition, but which is definitely a vital part of my spiritual path.

                        I'm okay with someone thinking otherwise and don't really want to debate it with someone who feels differently. I like LLB and others here and try to just let things flow without getting defensive about my beliefs and to give them room for theirs. It's actually really kind of cool to know you see things differently, but succeed in having a conversation anyway. It's a way for me to try to practice harmony amidst differing points of view. Sometimes I get caught up anyway, but that's okay to, as long as I see I'm doing it and find my way back to some stance that's mutually respectful. And besides, even though they may be different than mine, the beliefs of others are fascinating in a good way and I'm always curious about what their thinking and why.
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                          Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                          Wed, August 26, 2009 - 11:48 PM
                          ok maybe shot in the head was a harsh analogy... lets use nailed to a cross instead...

                          ; )

                          shrugs shoulders and walks away...
                          cheers
                          • Re: The healing power of forgiveness

                            Sat, August 29, 2009 - 11:28 AM
                            Regarding a post close to the beginning here, forgiveness can only facilitate egoic thinking in that you're thinking about it as something someone owes you. Nobody owes it to you, and you don't owe it to anyone else. However, and here's my personal-story-thing, working with aya has always been frightening and I've had a very hard time accepting universal love in all its many forms, so my experiences have tended toward pushing me into the dark and feeling like I am dying and such. Finally, I realized that in order to improve my outlook on life, I had to forgive a close loved one who committed suicide some years ago, but I couldn't find the strength to do so; my next journey with the medicine was beautiful and difficult, but I found the strength to forgive him, and now every time I take the medicine it is all positive. When the ego drops away, it is not frightening, but inevitable and wished for. However, although I forgive him, I will never commit suicide myself, as I have seen firsthand the suffering it causes ultimately in the fabric of the universe, and I have also seen that it is not an escape from the pain, but a redistribution of it. I do not feel that I am able to go around doing things that cause pain to myself and others simply because I realize that anything (even suicide, rape, murder, total forest destruction) can be forgiven by other humans. Forgiveness is something for you to have in yourself to protect against judgemental thinking.

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