Starting a plant medicine center in Mexico near Puerto Vallarta

topic posted Thu, March 5, 2009 - 6:30 PM by  Sailin
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I recently purchased some very beautiful jungle land a few kilometers from the beach, 3 hours south of Puerto Vallarta. It is about 5 acres, full of lush banyan trees and a nice stream.

My dream is to turn this into a botanical garden containing medicine plants from Peru such as Ayahuasca, chacruna, brugmansia, brunfelsia, tobacco, ajo sacha etc etc and those indigenous to mexico as well. There would be small bungalows discreetly distributed around the property for visitors and a ceremony maloca suspended over the stream. I have spent some time dieting in the amazon and am planning several more months of apprenticeship this year. I am planning to bring curanderos up from Peru for 1 to 3 week periods, so if any of you know good healers that my be interested in a paid working vacation to Mexico, please hook me up with some contact info. Of course there are many indigenous Mexican shaman that I hope to bring in as well.

I am posting this idea here because I'm sure there are others out there interested in contributing time, money and skills to a project like this.

I'm also looking to hear from folks what they think of the idea of going to an Ayahuasca retreat in Mexico, such as 'I would love to!' or 'I would just spend the extra 5 hours on the plane and go to Peru'.

Open to any and all responses. Thank you.

posted by:
Sailin
Vancouver
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  • What is the legality in Mexico?
    • as far as i know and have been told by 2 mexican attorneys (and there is not much info available online), it is legal, at least in the sense that there is no law against it. This is an issue that I am currently inquiring further on and will post more as I find out, and am interested in any information anyone else may have as well.
      • Awesome. I'm interested in developments and possibly ;holding retreats there if that's in the possibility realm.
        • I wish you all the best and hope that fortune smiles on you. But having said that it seems a little odd to me, an ayahuasca retreat center in Mexico? Why not focus more on the myriad ancient traditions and plant teachers from the area? Is this what you want, or is it what the land wants?

          Not trying to be a debbie-downer, but have you talked to the land itself about this, about bringing in a whole bunch of (potentially invasive) non-native species in to do work from another culture from far away? I just feel like there's probably a ton of sacred plants and healing paths that are native to right there that would synch up with the vibe of the land much better.

          But again, I'm not trying to bring you down. If this is what your heart tells you you must do, then by all means listen to it, and I wish you abundance, happiness and health.

          :)
          • My understanding is that Sailin's interest is Ayahuasca, and establishing a center somewhere closer to home and legal at the same time. If it's remotely reminiscent of the Amazon rainforest, it's a plus.

            I understand your concerns about the native land, but there are positive sides to it as well... think about the jet fuel it could save ;)
            • What can I say, I'm a bioregionalist through and through....think of the jet fuel it could save to work with local medicines instead of travelling half-way around the world.....just saying....but I hear ya' though!

              :)
              • Well, for some it's important that the plant be local; for others it's important that the plant be Ayahuasca ;)
                • For some it's important that our internal growth and voyaging be harmonic with our ecological footprint.....for others, not so much.

                  :)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Drop in the bucket.
                    We eat food that is locally grown or not from widely different parts of the globe. Have a little curry with your rice? Rice? Some spinach in your lettuce salad? A hamburger? What about a fresh glass of OJ with your papaya? Of course I could go on and on. I understand bioregionalism, but in this time we've so lost whatever semblance of bioregional integrity that might have once existed that the growing of some medicinal herbs from the amazon in a different bioregion is a tiny, almost infinitesimal thing. Plus, maybe (and this is what I believe) the plants will benefit from and indeed want to be spread out across the world, both as a survival technique and as a way to spread their healing.
                    • Maybe so Richard, but stating the argument that we are all already damaging the world by buying these goods doesn't, IMO, justify expanding that mentality. In my case the overwhelming majority of food I eat comes from a relatively small radius, every day smaller. That doesn't make me a better person, it's just more in line with what I feel to be my path. When I drink ayahuasca it comes from a local curandero who goes up to Peru about 3 times a year and then brings down mucho medicina for his tribu here in Chile. So rather than all of us going up there, one goes and brings it back. Further, most ceremonies I participate in these days are of other medicines, all grown locally.

                      And still, while I am tempted to agree that the influence of ayahuasca in other places is beneficial, I think you all too casually dismiss the invasive species argument. Is it beneficial to the bioregion in question to have an amazonian liana and other plants all of a sudden drastically alter the landscape? I wouldn't want to be responsible for that particular decision.....

                      And also, if there being a center closer to the states means more and more people have access, ultimately the effect of balancing out the eco-footrpint of going down to Peru may be overbalanced by an increasing number of people going to Mexico, ultimately creating a greater footprint.

                      But hey, if in your heart it feels right then more power to you. The poster of the thread asked for opinions and this is mine.....

                      Paz y Amor a ti hermano.....
                      • "the plants will benefit from and indeed want to be spread out across the world, both as a survival technique and as a way to spread their healing."

                        It is my belief that every part of the world already has sacred plants that are there to do the healing. Further, the vibration of a healing plant when in it's context can (again, my belief) provide greater healing.

                        :)
                        • > It is my belief that every part of the world already has sacred plants that are there to do the healing

                          Most parts of the world are less biodiverse than the Amazon, and don't provide such a rich cornucopia of sacred plants.

                          One could think of the entire world as one large bioregion, or even one organism. From the rainforest being its lungs and heart, to the polar regions being its extremities.
                          The different parts don't have to be self-sufficient. They have different roles and complement each other, since everything is interconnected.
                          • www.umt.edu/montanan/w01/mountain.html

                            "Weed control has become a big issue in Missoula County, where spotted knapweed, leafy spurge and Dalmatian toadflax have obliterated historically diverse communities of bunchgrasses and perennial wildflowers. On city-owned Mount Jumbo as well as on Mount Sentinel, where the University owns more than 500 acres, the problem is acute. “Some days it’s just really discouraging,” Marler says. “It would have been so much easier and less expensive if somebody had started twenty years ago.” "

                            Note the word of the use "obliterated".....not such a soft term......and yes, the world is one organism. But I'd like to see how well your gastric juices fare in your lungs......
          • Jav, thanks for voicing concerns from a biological standpoint...i appreciate and understand these and am hoping that educated people such as yourself will assist in doing everything in the most ecologically sane and sensitive way possible.

            a few things about the project:
            for what its worth, the story of me buying the land is interesting.
            I had bought some beach property in an adjacent town several years ago with a partner, but it was riddled with title issues (as is all beach land in mexico). i was unsure if we would even be able to sell it due to the unstable nature of ownership.
            i sort of forgot about it and wrote it off as anything other than an occasional vacation spot until someone took it away.
            this last year i was in peru, and during a dieta i was shown visions of a possible version of reality which included me starting a plant medicine center in mexico. When i asked where it would be, i was shown this mountain with a stream.
            after my time in peru, i returned to mexico and went to talk to my partner on the beach land about its status. he wasn't home, and instead i went for a ride with another friend who was looking at land off the beach. as we drove deeper into the mountains, things started looking familiar. we looked at the lot he was interested in, and then i saw it: the same stream i had seen in my vision, at the base of a mountain.

            i got very excited and asked my friend if anything in the area was for sale. he said yes, and on the way back we stopped at the old ranchers house who owned it. the old rancher said that he had just sold that whole 80 hectare mountain to a group of 'eco-developers'.
            i was a bit sad on the way home, feeling a 'day late and dollar short'.

            i went to see my partner to talk about our beach land and he said he had great news. he had actually managed to sell it, for more than we paid, and had re-invested the money in another real estate project he thought i might be interested in, and if not i could have the money back out of it. we hopped in his truck to go look at the new land, and what do you know?
            we arrived at the same stream. it was my friend and 3 of his friends who had all pooled their money, and mine, and purchased the whole mountain with the idea of building an affordable, eco friendly, vehicle free community. he walked over to the same place i had just stood by the stream, and said, the front boundary of your piece is the river and it extends upwards to the top for a nice view. i immediately saw a maloca sitting over the stream, and little cabanas at the top of the hill.

            i did a ceremony there before i left with some medicine i had brought from peru and the feeling was very warm, with lots of orange and red colors, the colors of a mexican sunset.

            ayahuasca has opened me to the concept of 'dieting' many plants from all over, but i do feel like for me the framework of amazonian vegetalismo is a good personal fit and so that is what i would like to work within.

            also just to clarify, the idea of the retreat is a 'plant medicine' retreat which includes all sorts of local medicines as well as anything that could be safely important and merged from peru.

            i admit i have a lot of research to do before i can consider myself knowledgeable enough to say what can and cannot be safely imported but i am sure if the idea is worthy the right people will all contribute the right knowledge at the right time.

            i have to admit that the idea of us cutting down all the ayahuasca in peru to make into medicine that we take all over the world doesn't appeal to me a whole lot, and i really would rather cultivate and care for as much or more as i will personally be using.

            Please consider this an open call to any information regarding techniques for safely cultivating non-native pant species (interestingly enough, what is 'native' and how did it get there to begin with?)

            Thanks for your inputs!

        • Of course, that is the idea of this thread. I would say its at least 6 months to a year away (depending on a lot of things, funding being the biggest factor) but there is no time like now for us to start networking and brainstorming...
          so consider it one level denser than the possibility realm :)
          PM me with any concepts including number of people, duration, cost, etc and we can start pulling these energies down into 3D.
          cheers
          • Haha...i find it very 'serendipitous' that someone just posted this to the forum:

            www.opednews.com/articles/...06-10.html

            garden of mexican ethnobotany www.xplanta.com/

            looks like there is someone right up the road to help us with any botanical issues ;)
            dios mio
            • CG
              CG
              online 49
              Fabulous. Wonderful story and thank you for telling it. I'm glad to see your vision find it's home in the world.
              • Hi Sailin', thanks for sharing your vision and happenings with us. It sounds like some good guidance you've been getting there. I'm happy the article was posted about the Mexican ethnobotany garden too. Seems like that would definitely be the person to contact regarding any biological issues. Fun little planet we live on eh?

                And thanks for taking my words in the spirit that they were offered, not meant as a deterrent, but rather just another layer of the reality cake that's worth considering.

                Many blessings to you,

                Jav
                • I can't seem to find anything too conclusive on the web, but a couple anecdotal reports state that b.caapi is now considered invasive in Hawaii. Amongst those reports is one from Gayle, from this tribe (though she doesn't post anymore), and well, I've never seen Gayle ever say anything unfounded.......

                  ayahuasca.tribe.net/thread/7...7b77e66a3
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    its true... that it has become boarderline invasive in the islands... but thats also int he islands... people have to cut it down frequently to keep it in check... which is a good ting honestly because that means they have medicine in mass... not a bad thing to have to much medicine... it does mean though that people have to establish a relationship with that medicine...

                    I agree that every place has its own unique medicines... not all of them plants, and that is something to keep in consideration... not all shamans and healers work with entheogens...
                    but each of these places and medicines are unique and heal specific things mushrooms can not do what peyote or sanpedro does... trust me on this one.. it can do some of the things that they do... but not all of them... their differences are really really important...
                    the native american church has embraced peyote all the way up to northern canada amoung many tribes that have never had it... growing in their native bioregions... but its been a medicine that people need, its a medicine that unless we were in need of it we could not really understand why people need it... its been an important medicine to so many people... So many people have need of diabetic medicines and cancer medicines many of which do not come from their bioregions... and in the days of old when people where perfectly adapted to their bioregions the illnesess that people had often times been also perfectly adapted to their bioregions... as well a the medicines of thier bioregions...
                    we have new diseases and problems because of global expansion and now we need medicines to help with that....
                    but in a catch twenty two sort of way jav not needing medicines from another bioregion personally is a really really good thing... but some one needing it esle where where its not from is perfectly understandable... people need all kinds of medicines from thew amazon, it is the largest pharmacological store house and manufacturer of medicines in the world... with out quinene where would infants in africa and india all over the world be for that matter....

                    there are many things we do not need to out source but I think medicine is not one of them...
                    if my partner was dieing i would not hesitate to work with a non local medicine...

                    but here is the dig... ayahausca is also a psychopharmacological dynamic... it is not just a few plants that cultivate its effects... its a whole host of plants and chemicals that can cultivate very much the same healing and personal growth and discovery that the original ayahausca has inspired us to discover else where...

                    people fail to see this however... ayahuasca analogs have been greatly ignored by many ayahuasca enthusists and not because they dont work but because ayahuasca can be ordered and delivered with so much ease ( as well as so much ecological and social damage) the real shame is that there are analog plants that can be cultivated and wild crafted all over the place that can produce the ayahausca "effect" there is allready a relative of Banisteriopsis that grows in mexico and central america that has both DMT and beta carbolines in it that people suspect the mayans may have worked with... passion flowers can be cooked down with BASIC BASIC kitchen chemistry to produce much the same effects as the vine...

                    one must ask ones self if it is negligent and ecologically and socially irresponsible to work with medicines that can substitute other medicines that are locally available... mimosa hostilus grows all over mexico and has been added to ayahuasca vine and to vine analogs such as rue and passion flower to produce the ayahuasca effect instead of adding chacruna or chalipoonga... many tribes traditional add many different plants to the vine... so this is just a continuation of this same practice...

                    people have choosen t o go local when local alternatives are available as a social and ecological practice in ethics...
                    if one was to create a retreat center that did this based on local ayahausca analogs... now that would be revolutionary inspirational and responsible... but if no such alternatives where available... starting a retreat center closer to people in need would also be socialy and ecologically responsible until alternatives became available.

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