On June 7, 2007 I attended an Ayahuasca ceremony with Miguel Kavlin in Asheville, NC. The experience I had with Miguel was deeply disturbing and I am choosing to post my experience because I believe it is important that women and communities are aware of Miguel’s tendencies to try to seduce and take advantage of women who are in ceremony with him. I want to make it clear that I am in no way attempting to demonize or bash Miguel. However, there is a serious problem with the way in which Miguel has been and is carrying out his shamanic practices
The Ceremony
To spare the reader all the lengthy details, the short version of what went on between Miguel and me, is that he made advances toward me directly after the ceremony while I was still intensely experiencing the Ayahuasca medicine. While I was incapacitated to the point of not being able to walk about easily and at times was seriously contemplating the possibility that I might never come back to sanity, Miguel constantly played the line between presenting himself as a guide to "help" me through my experience and as a potential lover who was putting the moves on me. He repeatedly encouraged me to "lay beside him," which eventually I did. He then threw his leg over me, as a lover would do, which I turned away from. When he got up to finally help another ceremony participant who had been vomiting for a very long time, he kissed my cheek and said he would be right back, again as a lover would, after which I sat up, disgusted and disturbed. After that he kept attempting to persuade me to lie down again. He began caressing my back and hips to "comfort me." Later, as he was again caressing me around my waist and hips, I realized his hand was on my inner thigh under my skirt, at which point I pushed his hand away aggressively. Eventually, close to day break, I told Miguel that I thought I probably should lie down and that I was going to lie down on the living room couch, emphasizing that I wanted to be BY MY SELF, which I did and at which point he went up to his room.
My experience is not an isolated event, just two days after my experience another woman from my community had a disturbingly similar experience with Miguel. As in my case, this woman also had a second cup of Ayahuasca late in the ceremony and Miguel was conveniently there to "help" her through her experience where he constantly tried to persuade her to "lay" with him and made her extremely uncomfortable.
My Concerns
First of all, it concerns me that Miguel has made and makes advances towards women while they are still under the influence of the medicine, to the extent of having intercourse with them in some cases. For myself, like I said, I was incapacitated in many ways. It was difficult to move. I felt insane. Visions, images and sensations were constantly bombarding me. Throughout parts of the experience I felt extremely sensual and even erotic, which is not an uncommon experience with the Ayahuasca. As far as the erotic nature of the medicine goes, Miguel’s actions glimmer in the light of something akin to using a date-rape drug. Even if this explicitly erotic or sensual element is not present, the space of being altered is a vulnerable and susceptible place to be which seems obviously inappropriate to be putting the moves on someone when they are in a vulnerably altered space.
This brings me to another of the huge factors, which is Miguel’s role as the guide and leading shaman of the whole ceremonial experience. In my situation, his intentions were absolutely blurry between assisting me through an intense experience with the medicine and making romantically/sexually motivated advances toward me.
Since this experience of a role's ambiguity plays into power it brings up the concern that Miguel's actions are a gross exploitation the position of power and status that he holds as a "shaman." Making advances towards women under his guidance takes advantage of the almost innate desire for people to seek special attention and treatment from a teacher, mentor, guide, or leader.
Another concern of mine is the possibility that Miguel has a predatory pattern of how he chooses women to attempt to seduce. Seeing the similarities between my experience and the other woman's from this community is disturbing.
Lastly, I want to mention the disappointment in Miguel for his lack honesty about what he is doing and his tendency to lie about, rationalize and belittle the reality of what he is doing. I have experienced his tendency to say what people want to hear and to say what ever he needs to protect himself and not admit to anything that would endanger his reputation.
In the days following the ceremony I attended, I realized that I needed to have a conversation with Miguel and express to him that I felt his actions with me had been totally inappropriate, had made me uncomfortable and that I felt they were absolutely out of integrity. A lot of my concern was for other women who he might have or would put in a similar situation as mine. On his last day in Asheville, I did end up having this conversation with him. I confronted him straightforwardly with these above-mentioned concerns. His immediate reaction was a defensive, "All I did was hold your hand." I quickly corrected and reminded him of what actually happened. Although he made me feel listened to from that point on and assured me that he "apologized for anything he may have done that had made me uncomfortable," just days later he sent a defensive email to our community claiming that he "did not improperly touch or impose himself on anyone," and that he only "held hands and embraced a couple of us," negating and belittling what had really gone on.
When I asked about other women who, as he put it, he got a "calling" to "hold," he lied and implied to me that he would and had never slept with women directly after ceremonies. He also directly lied to the other woman who he was inappropriate with when asked these kinds of questions about the nature of his other relations with women.
I do not want other women to have to go through what I went through. I feel that women deserve to be warned before contemplating entering into ceremony with Miguel. I sincerely pray that this issue can be resolved, and that Miguel and other shaman’s who are engaging in this kind of manipulative and out-of-integrity behavior can see their behavior and motivation for what it is. I don’t think this is a small issue. I think it is a big issue. I think it is a complete misusage and dishonor of the Mother and of our grandmother Ayahuasca, and of the sacred tradition of ceremony.
From my heart to the community, Julia
The Ceremony
To spare the reader all the lengthy details, the short version of what went on between Miguel and me, is that he made advances toward me directly after the ceremony while I was still intensely experiencing the Ayahuasca medicine. While I was incapacitated to the point of not being able to walk about easily and at times was seriously contemplating the possibility that I might never come back to sanity, Miguel constantly played the line between presenting himself as a guide to "help" me through my experience and as a potential lover who was putting the moves on me. He repeatedly encouraged me to "lay beside him," which eventually I did. He then threw his leg over me, as a lover would do, which I turned away from. When he got up to finally help another ceremony participant who had been vomiting for a very long time, he kissed my cheek and said he would be right back, again as a lover would, after which I sat up, disgusted and disturbed. After that he kept attempting to persuade me to lie down again. He began caressing my back and hips to "comfort me." Later, as he was again caressing me around my waist and hips, I realized his hand was on my inner thigh under my skirt, at which point I pushed his hand away aggressively. Eventually, close to day break, I told Miguel that I thought I probably should lie down and that I was going to lie down on the living room couch, emphasizing that I wanted to be BY MY SELF, which I did and at which point he went up to his room.
My experience is not an isolated event, just two days after my experience another woman from my community had a disturbingly similar experience with Miguel. As in my case, this woman also had a second cup of Ayahuasca late in the ceremony and Miguel was conveniently there to "help" her through her experience where he constantly tried to persuade her to "lay" with him and made her extremely uncomfortable.
My Concerns
First of all, it concerns me that Miguel has made and makes advances towards women while they are still under the influence of the medicine, to the extent of having intercourse with them in some cases. For myself, like I said, I was incapacitated in many ways. It was difficult to move. I felt insane. Visions, images and sensations were constantly bombarding me. Throughout parts of the experience I felt extremely sensual and even erotic, which is not an uncommon experience with the Ayahuasca. As far as the erotic nature of the medicine goes, Miguel’s actions glimmer in the light of something akin to using a date-rape drug. Even if this explicitly erotic or sensual element is not present, the space of being altered is a vulnerable and susceptible place to be which seems obviously inappropriate to be putting the moves on someone when they are in a vulnerably altered space.
This brings me to another of the huge factors, which is Miguel’s role as the guide and leading shaman of the whole ceremonial experience. In my situation, his intentions were absolutely blurry between assisting me through an intense experience with the medicine and making romantically/sexually motivated advances toward me.
Since this experience of a role's ambiguity plays into power it brings up the concern that Miguel's actions are a gross exploitation the position of power and status that he holds as a "shaman." Making advances towards women under his guidance takes advantage of the almost innate desire for people to seek special attention and treatment from a teacher, mentor, guide, or leader.
Another concern of mine is the possibility that Miguel has a predatory pattern of how he chooses women to attempt to seduce. Seeing the similarities between my experience and the other woman's from this community is disturbing.
Lastly, I want to mention the disappointment in Miguel for his lack honesty about what he is doing and his tendency to lie about, rationalize and belittle the reality of what he is doing. I have experienced his tendency to say what people want to hear and to say what ever he needs to protect himself and not admit to anything that would endanger his reputation.
In the days following the ceremony I attended, I realized that I needed to have a conversation with Miguel and express to him that I felt his actions with me had been totally inappropriate, had made me uncomfortable and that I felt they were absolutely out of integrity. A lot of my concern was for other women who he might have or would put in a similar situation as mine. On his last day in Asheville, I did end up having this conversation with him. I confronted him straightforwardly with these above-mentioned concerns. His immediate reaction was a defensive, "All I did was hold your hand." I quickly corrected and reminded him of what actually happened. Although he made me feel listened to from that point on and assured me that he "apologized for anything he may have done that had made me uncomfortable," just days later he sent a defensive email to our community claiming that he "did not improperly touch or impose himself on anyone," and that he only "held hands and embraced a couple of us," negating and belittling what had really gone on.
When I asked about other women who, as he put it, he got a "calling" to "hold," he lied and implied to me that he would and had never slept with women directly after ceremonies. He also directly lied to the other woman who he was inappropriate with when asked these kinds of questions about the nature of his other relations with women.
I do not want other women to have to go through what I went through. I feel that women deserve to be warned before contemplating entering into ceremony with Miguel. I sincerely pray that this issue can be resolved, and that Miguel and other shaman’s who are engaging in this kind of manipulative and out-of-integrity behavior can see their behavior and motivation for what it is. I don’t think this is a small issue. I think it is a big issue. I think it is a complete misusage and dishonor of the Mother and of our grandmother Ayahuasca, and of the sacred tradition of ceremony.
From my heart to the community, Julia
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sat, August 18, 2007 - 2:24 PMWhoa ...
While I have a lot of sympathy for your bad experience and admire your wish to warn other people, it seems really dangerous to publically declare on an open forum this guy's full name and where he led an ayahuasca ceremony. That this puts anyone in the the area you named who is interested in this kind of thing at greater risk.
I don't have a good solution to this problem and I'm very sorry for your bad experience, but I have to call that out.
lux~ -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sat, August 18, 2007 - 6:38 PMLux,
You said "it seems really dangerous to publically declare on an open forum this guy's full name and where he led an ayahuasca ceremony"
Assuming everything said in the post is true (I don't know... I wasn't there) It is far more dangerous to do nothing. It is unlikely that someone taken advantage of in this type of setting could go to the authorities to report it. Questions of "what were you doing there?" could not be answered without implicating oneself in an illegal activity. That alone could allow a self-proclaimed shaman to act in ways that are innapropriate or illegal.
Once again, I wasn't there but I personally think that risking exposure by reporting someone's name is a far lesser evil that not speaking out and allowing the possibility that a woman might be assaulted or abused while vulnerable.
To criticise someone for speaking out like this is self-serving. This is akin to saying "Don't turn the local car-parts thief in to the authorities, we have been getting good deals from him and he might turn us all in".
Lux, This is not to criticise your opinion, only to put things in perspective.
My two-cents
-CB
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 7:48 AMI agree that the actions on the part of Miguel were indeed inappropriate in the case of Julia and i truly hope as he matures he will learn that the old ways of Latin Men in this country or any, of womanizing, etc. etc are not OK.
I am in support of Miguel as a Shaman, because the work I have experienced around him is very powerful, and i would like to be in support of That...this is what I meant with 'don't throw the baby out with the bath water' But do teach the baby what works and what doesn't is good......
I, personally instead of trashing Miguel about his behavior, wanted to say that what I found in my experience with him was so beautiful.....so it can go both ways, he is truly a beautiful, respectful, caring positive man and well trained Shaman. So do we have to trash him, or could we just be instrumental in advancing his Shamanic training? I agree that being a sexual predator in any circumstance is truly unacceptable... in sacred ceremony it is not in integrity at all..But sex itself is Sacred, so in the right circumstance it could be really beautiful.......
So if he is seen as a loving and caring man with a high sex drive, I think he needs to just make an adjustment....I have known so many men that are like this....Rock Stars, other shamans and spirtual leaders, most all High profile men in power positions....Why is it so easy to fall into this pattern for them? so many of them do it all the time...
So whats the answer.....Does he need counselling? A high sex drive partner to travel with him? Who knows......but I can guarantee you all that there is not one human being out there reading this post right now, including myself, that does not have one behavior pattern or addiction of their own that they are struggling with and maybe need counselling or help with...this is Miguel's weakness....we all have one.
So I recognize him as a wonderful Shaman with a human ego...which he fully admits.
I have heard from others that many Shamans from South Amercia sleep with the women that come to their ceremonies..
So I am saying let us support Miguel to make some changes in this pattern and get more on target, so we can still enjoy his wonderful gifts as a loving and Powerful Shaman....
I really like him and hope he reads this thread , makes his apoligizes where needed and gets more centered about this on his next North American adventure...we love Miguel for the powerful Soul that he is..and a diseminator of the sacred plant medicine...we need his medicine and his magic in this World......Let's not lose sight of that....
Blessings All~
-
-
medicine and healthy boundaries
Sat, August 18, 2007 - 6:44 PMwell, i heard a while ago that miguel had quite a habit of taking many lovers, and sometimes after ceremonies, and he became a good friend of mine over time : i did do the intensive shamanic training in bolivia (miguel's course), and it was amazing! and the way i've always felt about it was simply that the medicine actually empowers people to make healthy conscious decisions for their lives, as opposed to the opposite as you're saying here julia. so i never felt too worried about any of the women miguel was seeing here and there.
after reading your post i have to say that this seems to be my question again. does the post ceremonial influence of any of hte medicines miguel works with actually put people into a place where they are in more danger of making a poor sexual choice than otherwise? from what you're saying i hear two things : on the one hand you're saying you feel strongly that yes it does : on the other hand, you do describe that you were quite capable of setting your boundaries, and so miguel got the hint after a few tries at communicating that in a subtle and then not so subtle way.
to me when i think about it more now i realize that it could vary hugely between ceremonies and the people attending them. so it's a dangerous wild card and miguel obviously needs to look at that.
i think for miguel when the ceremony is over he becomes just miguel... he's still a shaman of course but we all are shamans : ceremony is over and miguel is no longer in the same role of facilitator, so then he is much more willing to persue his own personal interests. for example at the course, as soon as the ceremony was over he was straight off to bed (goodnight, i'm outta here!) haha. nobody minded, but there was a clear marker there for where his duties began and ended.
in other words i think he was approaching you not as a councellor, as a teacher or as a facilitator but as a guy, who like many guys, seem to think sex is the best thing ever no matter what time of the day it is. it sounds like he actually thought it WOULD make you feel better to make love at that time... and apparently he was very wrong about that.
anyway, i just don't think that miguel tries to assume any role of therapist or counsellor for the people that he works with. BUT the problem with that seems to simply be that people assume that's what his role would be, and since he has no common method of communicating that to people, expectations are automatically there for it. the peruvian tradition is not the same way as north american cultral norms, let's put it that way. it's very much like, here's your medicine, now good luck. people have a hard time understanding that in the west, and i think it's a cultural gap that needs to find a bridge.
i hope miguel can become that healthy bridge because he would certainly be well suited for it, with his native background and his general fluency in english and many of the cultural norms out here.
so those are my thoughts for now. and julia, blessings to your process. i hope you aren't in any way offended by my comments. -
-
Re: medicine and healthy boundaries
Sat, August 18, 2007 - 7:24 PMCowbot,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
There are more than two options - it's not a choice between saying nothing and saying exactly what we see here.
Was it necessary to name the small city where this ceremony occurred? And the rough date, and the guy's full name? Could putting that information out on an open forum jeopardize people who have nothing to do with the situation being described here? Seems to me that the answer to the first three questions is "no", and the answer to the last question is "yes".
respectfully,
Lux -
-
Re: medicine and healthy boundaries
Sat, August 18, 2007 - 7:55 PMHi Lux,
I was under the impression that the shaman named lived in the area and 'outing' him was the only way to expose a potential problem. After googling his name I see that he is well-known to the international aya community so I do agree with your latest post. My bad.
-CB
-
-
Re: medicine and healthy boundaries
Sat, August 18, 2007 - 11:35 PMIf there are participants in the CIrcle who are still very high,and there are people still purging, The Ceremony isn't over.
To sexually approach a woman who is still wrapped in the embrace of Mother Aya is plain wrong.
This is the same as some guy taking advantage of an intoxicated woman. It is sexual abuse.
This is a serious problem in the "shamanic" community, and it should not be condoned under any condition or no matter how nice a guy he is.
If this is his pattern, he is predatory and the word needs to be out on him.
As men, we need to support our sisters to the max on this, no questions asked. -
-
Re: medicine and healthy boundaries
Sun, August 19, 2007 - 5:12 AMJulia-
I'm very sorry to hear about your experience. Clearly, as you tell it, this should have never happened.
People are people, sure. But if people are putting themselves in a position of power - as anyone who comes to lead ceremonies, classes, tours, etc. is doing - they should be expected to behave responsibly. They shouldn't lure people in with their presentation, and then abuse their power once people are there.
I'm sad to see people who were wronged be blamed, subtly or otherwise, for what happened. At some point, I hope we will all come to a place where what happened to you can't and won't be ok, and people who do it, for whatever reason, aren't supported to any degree.
Thank you for speaking up. Your heart and courage are strong. You may very easily save someone from going through what you went through, and that's good medicine.
Love,
Veg -
-
Re: medicine and healthy boundaries
Sun, August 19, 2007 - 5:13 AMBugion-
"As men, we need to support our sisters to the max on this, no questions asked."
Well said brother.
Love,
Veg
-
-
Re: medicine and healthy boundaries
Sun, August 19, 2007 - 8:56 AMwell said!
-
-
Re: medicine and healthy boundaries
Sun, August 19, 2007 - 10:57 AMThank you Julia for your post. While I love and adore Miguel, this issue can no longer be ignored. I have known Miguel for 7 years. It was he who introduced me to the Medicine, as we share the same Native American teacher and lineage. I have respect for him as a brother and as a warrior, but this issue with woman has surfaced over and over since I attended his Intensive in Bolivia, almost 3 years ago. Sparing you the details, there was a woman in our course who a similar experience while we were in dieta. He has since acknowledged the inappropriateness of his actions....but there have been other threads posted here on Tribe around this issue and other questions about his integrity. I have learned a great from Miguel, unfortunately much of it is in relation to this issue and the importance of maintianing extremely clear boundaries. I had merely resigned myself to no longer supporting his work, but at this point...I can no longer maintaion silence in hopes that Miguel will 'make what is crooked straight' on his own. i support Julia and others like her who have been put in a vulnerable position. I continue to pray that Spirit will provide for those under his care and that Miguel will see with clear vision the results of his actions.
-
-
Re: medicine and healthy boundaries
Sun, August 19, 2007 - 11:00 AMsupport for a woman in a situation like this is definitely of the utmost importance.
i totally respect the voicing of this and i truly hope that with compassion and communication, it can be fully resolved. that would be a true blessing for many people i'm sure.
-
-
Re: medicine and healthy boundaries
Mon, November 3, 2008 - 11:42 PMLunaya, sounds to me like you are excusing his behavior. You may have different sexuall mores than others and there is no judgement on that. I'd love to see consensual sex all the time, anywhere and everywhere. BUT THIS IS CEREMONY!
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, August 19, 2007 - 11:48 AMyeah.
i am not subtly blaming julia for this scenario, vegitalista. i am just asking the serious question of weather it is safe to make sexual choices for yourself while still under the influence of these medicines.
after really giving this quite a bit of serious thought, i think that without a doubt it would be totally inappropriate to begin a new sexual interaction with someone in such a sensitive space.
miguel of all people should know that that behaviour was inappropriate... in my opinion weather he is a shaman or just another person attending the ceremony, it's obvious that he crossed a serious line here.
this is very hard for me to say, because i totally love miguel and have benefitted hugely from his amazing work, which i know he has trained very hard to be able to do, but until i see a very strong and long standing consistent show of proof that he has changed his ways, i would not be able to recommend him to another woman.
miguel, i support you 100% in rectifying this behaviour in yourself, and healing your relationship with your work and the people who work with you, past present future. i know that you are capable of mending this, you are one of the strongest people i know, and i truly truly hope to be able to some day feel comfortable facilitating you myself in my home town.
until that time, i will travel to dance the final 2 years of my 4 year commitment to the long dance with you for sure.
my love and support to all involved. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, August 19, 2007 - 12:33 PM> As men, we need to support our sisters to the max on this, no questions asked.
I quite disagree with that point of view. No one is saying that this isn't a very important issue that needs to be dealt with. But I'll ask again: would this warning have been any less effective without naming the place and time in which the ceremony was conducted? It adds nothing to the warning, and potentially endangers other people. In addition, there's a question of practice at stake here. Is it a good idea to encourage people to talk openly on public forums about when and where ayahuasca ceremonies occur, and who is leading them?
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, August 19, 2007 - 1:09 PMsilverbirch-
"i am not subtly blaming julia for this scenario, vegitalista."
I'm glad to hear it, because your reply, when I first read it, didn't feel supportive in the least, but rather it felt like it dumped things back on the woman who suffered.
"i am just asking the serious question of weather it is safe to make sexual choices for yourself while still under the influence of these medicines."
I can't imagine it is, which is why anyone facilitating these ceremonies should never think of putting someone in attendance in a position where those choices are necessary. That's part of the responsibility and integrity of a facilitator.
Veg -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, August 19, 2007 - 3:04 PM"I'm glad to hear it, because your reply, when I first read it, didn't feel supportive in the least, but rather it felt like it dumped things back on the woman who suffered."
well, i would be happy to speak to you privately about that if you think so : it was certainly not my intention and i don't see it in my words, but i'm open to talking about it.
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, August 19, 2007 - 6:40 PMI very strongly question the wisdom of posting direct accusations like this on a public forum. I believe that there could be strong legal ramifications both for the accuser and for Tribe.net. I've written the moderator and suggested he remove this thread. If he does so, perhaps a new thread on this topic could be started. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 10:05 PMHI Richard. I like this post you made on August 19, 2007 questioning unsubstantiated slander in a public forum. Most people just stepped over you and took her accusations as fact without question. You notice how the accuser never came back to respond to anyone's posts. The moderator "Ben" deleted posts that questioned this person. There was no open discussion in my opinion. It's like lynch mob mentality. Thank you for your wisdom in an insane world.
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, August 19, 2007 - 8:35 PMJulia, I am sorry that Miguel was inappropriate with you...I feel there are some of us out there like myslf who "Get" where he is coming from......So Those of you out there that have problems with Miguels advances to women, just say no thank you to him.....if you are not interested in his closeness....personally I found his closeness very comforting and helpful to the sacred work I was sent to do with the Medicine.....below is an account of what happened for me this summer with Miguel and his beautiful Ceremony. Although I do consider myself advanced in the use of this medicine and practices...but I am a Tantrika and a Shaman in my own right and do this kinda work......Please don't go throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater....it is too bad that he left you feeling unclear about his intentions....he is just a man when the ceremony is over after all.....and we all have our Human-ness to over come still....who is to say what is really appropriate or not when it comes to this kind of work....if you can't take the heat stay out of the Kitchen.......That's what I say anyway.....
For me the experience was totality....and Completion with a Man on all levels...So read it if you want to.....and remember this is about you, the medicine is about what you need to see and face...it is a Teacher, it is not about Miguel, he faces his own lessons each time.
BELOW IS MY ACCOUNT :
This year’s experience of the medicine Journey’s I have just gone through have been all about Completion and the Sacred, Divine Merger for me……..When I decided to go to the Long Dance and Mother Ceremonies with don Miguel Kavlin. I had fallen in love last year with 2 Shamans. One being Miguel and the other his apprentice Mazzah. I just really loved working with those guys and Mazzah was just a plain beautiful Soul and an exemplar human being.
This year I was called to go to honor the memory of Mazzah who passed away last November right before Chief, my son’s old dog. I felt Chief joined Mazzah……. I knew Mazzah was in my Soul Group and a part of my Tribe, as he came to me in a powerful vision to show me his Soul…...
So I was called to the Long Dance again, because of my love for the Sacred medicine and Mazzah's memory …
.
I went to do the work and drink the Spirit medicine and do the Dance……and to partake of the teachings of maestro don Miguel, as I feel he is an excellent Shaman.
My mission this year has all been about the Sacred merger of the Divine Couple the male and female aspects of my Soul becoming ONE…..I was already working on my banner of this Divine merger before I ever got the calling to go on this mission and do the Long Dance.
So my art project of the divine marriage was almost finished by the time I was called to do this work.
When I first got there Miguel came to me and we talk about last year and all that happened for us…..I felt his energy and his passion and right there I knew I was to work with Miguel in the divine Union work …I felt he was the one this time that needed a healing, and that I would be the Shaman returning the favor and with our combined magic we could free the Sacred couple to fully merge within our Human selves……. as above so below…..
Miguel was my teacher and apprentice….as I was his…in many ways.
The ceremony the first night was incredible for me…..the work was most difficult and the night long and hard…Miguel made it possible with his incredible stamina and music…he is to me a very talented conductor of sacred energies and has a strong Male Force that is God Like in many ways. meaning beyond the ordinary realm of powers.
I loved and admired that in him…..
The work I did that night was about removing the veil..the Maya, the illusion that keeps us struck and dense.
I was for sure a liaison for this merger and knew that we all together in this intimate setting were to experience a kind of magic that was beyond words……
Which I did……. on the Medicine it was like a true Sacred Union and Divine merger. I had never in my life felt such completion . Being there was like being in the arms of God in Heaven. I totally encountered my True Beloved as we intertwined our Souls and bodies in the Oneness together.
The work the second time in the Mother Ceremony was like I had died and was being shown the Totality of All ….it was so beautiful…there is nothing in the World of this brilliancy or structure. There are no words to describe my experience………it was Heaven, or the State of full contact, merger with GOD or whatever words that can be used to attempt to put into sentences and express what is beyond what can be described. I was blessed with this fortune of being brought to the brink of Soul merger….. it was an experience of Heavenly Joy and Love for me…I cannot describe this ..insatiable longing for Completion and Ecstasy…… there is no Shaman, no amount of money that one could pay to have this experience. So for me being with the Medicine in this way was completely priceless…To experience my Beloved in the Work …. My True Beloved and I were in those precious moments like Mars and Venus, Shiva/Shakti….. two creator Gods, in the state of total Oneness…..this was why I came and why I was called to the medicine work once again…to feel, know and remember the state of Bliss and ecstasy of true Love…I know we had this glimpse together. It was not for us to experience this alone, but for some greater part of our Soul Group to have this Love and Union …… When my beloved and I came together, I was merging with the Whole of the Human Family..I was the surrogate Mother and he the Father…and we together were bringing the Eagle and the Condor together in the Oneness of the Whole of Humanity.
It was not about the human experience at that point, but about the Grander scale of Beings running the entire Universe, that I knew……we are puppets in their grander plan……I was so honored to have this experience.
I knew my true beloved was with me thru the experience and thru the Medicine….Krishna was there with me….The medicine hosted my beloved, and that I am eternally grateful for the experience ……
……… The last night of the Mother Ceremony, I decided to go to Portland . He invited me back so I went…My experience was Totality. I had Completion. My Beloved finalized it. We finished the last act and together rebirthed the World. It was done it was saved, the Eagle and Condor Merged and I was eternally in the arms of him, my True Love, my True Beloved…it was completion and rebirth at the same time, and I felt like I was complete on all levels, that I had finally healed the past of the Wounded Heart of my Soul…
So total Kudos for Miguel,……. I Made a vow not to cry about it when it was over…I just must honor the Vision and know it will all come to pass when it is meant to…. I am not sure if I could have truly experienced this in quite that way without Miguel’s work as a Shaman and giving me the comfort of his physical presence and the medicine which for me produced the ultimate in Healing.
And to Miguel if you do read this………You were a wonderful Shaman ….. it was truly a blessing to have encountered this Union through the medicine …..Thank you for your magic, your music, your stamina, your positive light hearted fun nature….and of course your Sacred medicine and the whole darn healing…..You Rock! Bless you, your wife and family and Our Whole Human Family…….we truly are creating the New Golden Age, returning to our True Nature and merging the Male/Female aspects of our Souls -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 12:02 AMyeah, right on kuy well said.
you know what? this has been a very important time of learning for a little silverbirch. a VERY important time. i really give thanks for everything everyone's said here.
julia i am so happy that you wrote this, and that you wrote it so well. i am standing in awe of a woman in her power. i want to make it crystal clear that i back you up ALL the way. i respected you from the start, but i feel now my whole heart is completely with you.
let it also be said that there are two different medicines involved here, each with a very distinct spirit and different kinds of ceremonies. i just want to say that because i realize i was mixing the two together in my mind far too much, and that was causing me some confusion.
i will also say that in my mind, miguel, as much as i love and respect you in so many ways, you are disqualified until further notice.
i take back what i said about my 4 year commitment to the long dance. instead, i am going to take my year until the next one to think very very carefully about weather or not i will participate again.
i'm really becomming aware of how every single ceremony, and every single example set by every single shaman hugely affects the whole community, weather it's posted about or talked about or not. definitely a shaman has major responsibilities as an ambassador and a teacher, through every action. i have compassion because that would be an VERY challenging thing to live up to... but you know what? that's just the way it is.
again i'm going to thank everyone on this forum for saying what you've said : it's been a very helping time for me. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 12:37 AMan outside perspective.
having no ties to this person and no experience of Aya but the personal stories of other people, i must say that i feel "safer" and more capable of ensuring my own safety knowing this information. I feel that the sharing of this situation gives each of us greater awareness, which i feel is very good because from what i have heard of the journey it might not at all be easy to simply say "no thank you” to someone.
Although perhaps stating the time and place of the ceremony was not appropriate, i feel that sharing the name was appropriate. if you think about it, now a female can make an informed decision to interact with this person during such a time or not.
All Love
Thank you.
Krystal =)
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 9:03 AMit saddens me to know that any one that would lead during ceremony, could behave in such a way....i know he is a man, yet it saddens me... -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 9:27 AMmiguel is connected to a number of other people around the world that do long dance ceremoneis and sun moon dance ceremonies, as well as the peace chamber, like he has in bolivia... based around thier teacherr beautifull painted arrow, who is a great man.
i think his community needs to confront him on this and be notified about all of this...
my question is wether or not a dance cheif of these sacred ceremonies should be alowed to lead whhen hes takeing advantage of his position and acting inappropriately...
the dances and ceremonies he leads all came from beautifull painted arrows visions and he adapted them to his own work with his own visions... and i beleive that the ceremonies are very powerfull and very effective in helping people... but i dont think he should be leading them until he actualy changes his behaviours.
i love and used to deeply respect miguel... but because of all thats happened over the years hes lost my respect... and for many reasons besides the fore mentioned ones...
if people want to try to contact members of the long dance community and sun/moon dance community that beautifull painted arrow helped
form... here is a link to a list of people around the world...
www.peacechamber.com/PeaceCh...rld.html -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 9:46 AMYes, It is clear Miguel, you must totally end this behavior or get out of the Medicine Biz....
It is time to step up to the Divine Reckoning..and take a Shamanic Cleanse of all addictions -
-
Unsu...
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 12:44 PMsupport our sisters no questions asked, no criticism, its wrong we know it, now put pressure on miguel to get him to see whats up and inform all the sisters of the danger. it is interesting the nay sayers in that they behave about the same way as people have always behaved in rape cases around the world, next thing you know someone will ask julia if what she was wearing was provacative or not! -
-
CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, Using Ayahuasca as Foreplay?
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 4:53 PMThis type of behavior is appalling and disrespects the medicine. Women are vulnerable in this situation and, since Miguel has presented himself as a shaman, he should wait until a retreat is over before hitting on women. He puts women in an awkward position - blow off the shaman? Leave the retreat? Request your money back?
Does he at least promise an extraordinary sexual experience?
Perhaps Miguel needs to groom himself, take a shave, and become the player he really wants to be. I thought shamans always advise against sexual activity since The Goddess was jealous? That is what I've been told every time I have gone to a retreat.
It is right of the poster to let us know what to expect. It has not stopped him, but at least women going to drink with him will be aware and can act accordingly. Why doesn't he have a girlfriend? Or, is it all about the power and the thrill of forcing someone - in a ceremony - to have sexual contact? Sounds like someone needs therapy.
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 5:16 PM!!!a-ho!!!
good point.
.as for the disclosure of place and person, it helps me in that it gives me a reference and in that sometimes we have to act fearlessly. We have Freedom of Religion and Shamanism and sacred plants medicine ARE INCLUDED in this. That we have an oppressive adminitration, shouldn't stop us from being fearless and convicted of our righteousness.
Noone wants to go jail, surely, but the truth is, a time may come when we will have to fight for an stand up for what we know is right. And that may involve sacrifice, as all battles involve sacrice. But as once stated "perfect love casteth out all fear" and the issue was really more about this woman's traumatic experience, and not so much about her, perhaps, limitations in bigger picture perspective in giving out the cities name. Sometimes we just need to trust and pray and trust and pray. If "they" want to "watch" us we need to pray for "them", too, and let them know that they are welcome, anytime, into the Heart of the Mother, too. Discretion and discrimination is definately a part of grace and wisdom, but forgiveness and trust are, too. It is a balance.
Paz e Luz. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 5:49 PMmiguel is married and he has two kids.
he's been honest with his wife about where he's at, and as far as i know she completely stnads behind him. i don't know if she's read this though and i don't know wha'ts going to happen with that.
jewel, i know it must be really hard for you to watch all this happening, and to have to tell miguel to put his staff down, and i honour you for standing in your power that way. bless you, sister. and may you continue to reap the deep benefits of your ceremonies and experiences with miguel. may this all be a powerful time of blessed learning for you in your life. -
-
Unsu...
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 5:36 AMhe is not completely honest with his wife, he tells her he is doing tantric healing! and from what i know of tantric seduction is kind of out. -
-
Unsu...
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 5:39 AMactualley lust is kind of out for that matter -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 6:05 AMand since i am at it i would like to inform everyone that after i denounced miguels behavior publicly he threatened me with bribed immigration and police officers in bolivia, as he is an aristocrat there it was effective , at the kangaroo inquest he said that he was an economist (imagine that) and that i was destroying his marriage and his business by defaming him on the internet. he will probabley read this and start harassing me again, though it will be difficult for him as i am currently working on US soil, i guess i will deal with him when i get back to bolivia. but it is time to act people, miguel has no sense, he really does not believe that this behavior is bad or that it is anyone elses business for that matter. i think part of the problem is that people do not understand how priviledged is the thin slice of society that he was born into in bolivia. he is a spoiled brat who is in dire need of a spanking. he also does shamanic courses in bolivia for around 3000 dollars for one month of instruction, he does this twice a year and handles between 10 and 20 people each time. this is an unprecedented amount of income for a shaman in south america. in talking with him i asked what he does with all that money, he says he puts it back into the indigenous community which is a patent lie as i have seen the state his employees live in and basically he treats his indian employees as most bolivian aristocrats have for hundreds of years. i think people who have done ceremonies with miguel and had great experiences are confusing the power of the ceremony and medicine with the presence of miguel, he surfs that power and takes credit for it openly these days, accepting adoring comments without batting an eye. he is not a humble man, he has never been humbled. -
-
Unsu...
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 9:56 AM
this is the warning put up by simplesol in january, he has since removed it from tribe due to threats of jail and fines in bolivia. i think it is time to get together on this people otherwise individuals that confront miguel will get into trouble....solidarity is the key to keeping the light shining around medicine land. simplesol has told me that he wished he had just focused on the sexual issues as they were the main reason y blogged miguels reputation. i think every one who has had bad experiences with miguel should cough up their stories now on this blog so that miguel can see a united front. i know that miguel is a member of tribe bur that he is more spying and manipulating than participating. he certainly does not declare himself, probabley trying to pass himself off as a girl ( that would be ironic )....it is also time that people woke up and stopped adoring him as it is not helping him in any way!
Warning: If you are thinking of working with Miguel Kavlin of
Sacharuna, Mistic Tours Bolivia, please read this!
My name is (deleted) and I am writing this letter to inform others of some
of the dangerous and unethical practices of Miguel Kavlin.
From time to time Miguel seduces young women immediately after a
medicine ceremony. Often these are women who have had very little
experience with medicine and are in a very vulnerable position. Many
of these women are no longer willing to participate in medicine
ceremonies with Miguel. Miguel has admitted that he seduces women
after ceremony but he says that he feels that this is not a problem
and he has no intention of changing.
Miguel says that he has been "authorized" to use a very dangerous
plant: Datura. He sometimes burns this plant in sweat lodge ceremonies
without telling people. He has also mixed it with San Pedro and given
it to people who trusted that he knew what he was doing. He may have
already hurt someone like this.
Datura can be very poisonous. I tried it once even though all of the
literature I had read concerning Datura advised me not to, as did
everyone I had talked with about it. And I should have listened to
them because IT IS VERY POISONOUS! Just like a poisonous mushroom. And
it can hurt or kill a person weeks after having taken it.
Datura allows very few people to work with her. In fact I have never
met anyone who possessed the incredible amount of knowledge required
in order to work with Datura, and I looked in Colombia, Ecuador, Peru
and Bolivia for such a person. The atropine based alkaloids in Datura
are constantly changing, and one must know which part of the plant to
harvest at exactly what time of day. Some say the plant will be
poisonous unless the person using it is truly humble and pure of heart
and is using it with the intention of healing and not simply for
personal power or knowledge, and I believe this to be true.
Miguel sometimes abandons people under his care, and this can have
severe consequences. During a recent trip to the Island of the Sun to
spread the ashes of Mahzza Hauser, one of Miguel's former students,
Miguel abandoned Mahzza's mother, an elderly woman, and she developed
first stage hypothermia, with Miguel nowhere in sight. If you would
like details about this, I am willing to provide them. I was there.
And this was not the first time Miguel had abandoned someone on a
pilgrimage.
I am not alone. There are others who have criticized Miguel recently
and over the years, although he denied this to my face, while looking in my
eyes. My motivation for writing this letter is to protect others from
a present danger. I still love Miguel but I feel it is necessary to
share this information because after talking with him about these
issues he showed no interest in changing and refused to recognize that
any problems exist, and I am worried that in the future he may harm
others.
I feel that it would be good for Miguel to be healed, though at this
point I have become more preoccupied with protecting others from him
than his personal process.
Please feel free to distribute this and add your own experiences. I
would also like to hear from those who disagree. I would encourage
everyone to write Miguel and ask him to change his practices; I think
it may be the only way to help him. He is extremely arrogant at this
point and really believes he has done nothing wrong. His email is
info@sacharuna.com
I would lastly state that people have been helped in ceremonies with
Miguel, but I would point out that this is due to the beauty of the
medicine not healing performed by Miguel. Though at this point he
takes credit for what the medicine does naturally.
… the truth shall set us free….
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 9:53 PMWho are you asshole? No questions asked? Go fuck yourself.
-
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sat, December 20, 2008 - 1:01 AMSounds like a skilled shaman with no ethics. Pity.
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 5:58 PMwell carmen's not stupid. miguel's wife. she knows what's going on. -
-
Unsu...
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 6:24 PMeveryone is stupid in the heart thats what wrong with us all to some extent. thats what miguel tells her, she of course uses it as she can -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 7:09 PMi don't buy it. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 8:01 PMin other words : i think they've talked about it at length. especially after you posted your thing, sean. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 8:02 PMand we're not all stupid in our hearts... come on, you know that, silly. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 10:18 PMI think as a woman in the ceremony path: I feel that we are just bridgin so many years of systemic abuse, bias, degradation and hardships because of gender and even inthe meidicne path there is patriarchy at work.... that a ceremony and in fact partcipation (either as a facilitaitor or patient) in a ceremony as a woman can often hold MANY other layers as it would for a man. I am not going to suggest for a second that men do not enter to heal from various horrible abuses, including sexual ones...but do argue that a woman is not more vulnerable socially or within the medicine comunity is denial based.
I completely suuport this woman using her voice . She did VERY well to say no to him in the moment. And to her credit provides a bigger service to others and hopefully also to miguel to break the silence... this kind of cycle only continues because abusers understand intrinsivly how difficult is it for an abused person to speak out.
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 2:31 AM"i think people who have done ceremonies with miguel and had great experiences are confusing the power of the ceremony and medicine with the presence of miguel, he surfs that power and takes credit for it openly these days, accepting adoring comments without batting an eye."
YEP.... thats about right in my years of working with him... and its just gotten worse and worse... your totaly right... thats exactly what ive been thinking all day in response to all this, and i am DAMN glad you said it and i dont hin people realize how important what you said IS! and i dont think miguel does either...
and Shankini... i have to say your post has been the most refreshing here on the larger subject... thank you for your wise words...
-
-
Unsu...
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 5:05 AMok its silly, we are actually smartest in our hearts if i think abou uhh dont think about it -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 9:57 AMremember that weird al song dare to be stupid? i love that one...
one of his best songs i think... and a good icaro... ; ) -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 12:38 PMmiguel has made a reply on the other version of this thread...
shamanism.tribe.net/thread/a...2d7ee3a6d -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, August 27, 2007 - 6:31 PMwell, i haven't been talking about it, but i slept with miguel several times through the course of knowing him.
he initiated that with me a day after a ceremony, which felt clean to me. it was just two regular people having some casual sex (with a real sense of the sacred), and enjoying it very much. under the full moon in a beautiful open field i might add.
then after the second time, he offered to open the space for something sexual after the upcoming long dance ceremony. i decided to wait till after the ceremony to decide, and my decision was yes... why not? sure, ok. the medicine worked us, and that was beautiful.
unfortunately now i know that it's traditionally frowned upon to do that kind of thing right after a ceremony with this andean sacrament. if i had known that i would not have done it. too bad that wasn't mentioned when i asked about the appropriateness of it.
then i went to bolivia and did the month long intensive shamanic training. before and after the training miguel opened up the space for us to once again make love. it was more than fine by me : i didn't feel like i was being taken advantage of at all. i wanted to just as much as he did.
unfortunately the last time we made love, right after the course, while we were in the midst of a very beautiful and deep intimate experience, miguel started doing something of a sexual nature that was very painful for me and which i didn't want to do.
so naturally i said, "NO, stop it". his response to that was to keep going with more force. i waited a moment, kindof in shock, and said again "stop!". again he kept going. it was really hurting me a lot. finally again i twisted my body around, gently smacked him and grabbed his shoulder and said, "NO, baby, you have to stop NOW!". finally then he stopped.
so that was rape, and it was quite serious.
and i was even bleeding a little shortly after, and i was in pain for three days after that. like, i know my boundaries, that's why i said stop.
the thing that was so hard for me about that was how close i felt to him and how much deep seated affection and love and admiration and respect i had for him as my friend and my facilitator after all that we had been through together. that is still exactly what makes all this so difficult for me.
so, after that miguel took off for new york.
so after coming out of shock, i realized i needed to take the incident quite seriously. so after a couple weeks, when he was back from new york, i called him and we talked. i explained to him that that was rape, and it was serious. he said "i hear you"... because i really asked him to hear me on that... but no apology.
i was really wondering what was up with that. i thought that would be the first thing he'd say. but no. he just mainly emphasized that he thought the experience was really positive. i agreed with him mostly but... you know... the rape part of it wasn't so nice.
so i emailed him about it, and i really explained in much more detail from my heart how i was feeling and how it had affected me, and been such a set back for my healing after all that amazing work... etc. and he didn't write me back. no response. a month went by, and still nothing. and we were still sending each other short messages about other things... finally i was furious and i resent him my email, saying i'm still waiting for your response.
and only then did he write to me and apologize, HUGEskool. it was a serious apology and i was happy to have it finally. and for me, that felt like all i needed at the time. i was happy. he promised to be extremely careful in the future, he achnowledged what a prick he'd been for not writing me about it for so long, he even complimented me for being so sweet and patient when i didn't have to be, and of course i loved that.
but the reason i'm posting all this here, after promising myself i wouldn't talk about this publically to ANYONE, is because after reading all this, and after seeing miguel's replies, i have to say that i think my story is a very important indicator of the deep seated pattern in this man's behaviour.
apologies mean so little. i don't want this to ever happen again.
when i asked miguel to step down from doing these ceremonies until he's sorted, and to apologize not only to julia and suzanne but to everyone in the community, he emailed me back and said, PLEASE STOP TELLING ME WHAT TO DO.
miguel, when i ask you to stop leading these medicine cermeonies until it is absolutely clear that you have sorted this problem out in yourself, that is the same thing as when i told you to stop when we were making love. as the goddess, as the medicine, as one with nature, i AM going to tell you what to do!!! DAMN RIGHT i am.
STOP miguel!!!
NOW!!!
i am not posting this for the sympathy of the people on this thread... only to make everyone aware of the seriousness of the situation... if anyone doubts it. and hopefully to have some impact on miguel's decision of how to deal with this. i don't plan on taking legal action (i don't trust the court system very much)... i just need to do my own healing work with this.
a big part of my personal healing around all this, is simply to not have to keep this a secret any more, as miguel has requested. i don't break promises very often, but in this case, this is really what i need to do, and i really think, what needs to be done in general.
i love miguel SOOOOOOO much. but you know what? i also love poisonous snakes and spiders (honestly). doesn't mean i'm going to go up and touch them once i realize they are poisonous and they bite. doesn't mean i'm not going to tell people... hey, there's a poisonous spider over there, don't go near it.
i've gotten a little more in depth about this in the shamanism version of this thread
blessings
silverbirch -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, August 27, 2007 - 9:00 PMHas anyone here replied to daniel's thread here? I find it interesting that some people have changed their tune about Miguel on this thread here (I'm sure you know who I mean), and that he has stood accused before being directly confronted for whatever it is he has done without having or reasonably being able to take an opportunity before or after to respond.
I just wonder what you all think at this point, I myself, having been in many heightened situations like this in many countries over the past 40 years but never taken or being taken advantage of, while I know that that DOES happen have seen such worked out between the parties concerned, sometimes even with all in attendance. I know it's difficult and sometimes seemingly impossible for the one who sooner or later realizes that (s)he has been taken advantage of to deal with such things, but as for myself I like the path that daniel suggests. What do you think? -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, August 27, 2007 - 11:40 PMDid you read the same thread in the shamanism tribe? The guy totally unrepentant - he replied several times - and I found his replies completely lacking in humality and taking responsibility for his actions, and did not say that he would no longer sexually assult women in his care.
If you like the path Daniel suggests - great. The next time you are sexually assulted you can keep silent. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 9:01 AMThanks for calling my attention to this! -
-
This post was deleted by ben
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 7:02 AMThis is not a good idea. Medicines=Rape=Police?!!!! Our objective and the mission gived by our Spirits is to "Clean the image of the Medicines" they are not drugs or stimulants that put crazy or hot to the people. The Medicines are our Sacrament. Please think about it. And let GOD, Great Spirit to do Justice, the Spirits and Taitas knows about the actions of Miguel Klavin. This is not a game, and call the low astral have a price. And always be carefull with whom take Medicine.
Thanks for all the post and THANK GOD for this time of transformation.
Un Abrazo y nuevamente gracias por sus palabras y aprendizaje.
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 10:42 AM<< let's get him arrested for smuggling aya. >>
I was going to ask "Are you serious?" to this astounding suggestion, and then I realized that this post is a troll.
-
-
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, January 27, 2009 - 8:21 PMAt this point I really have to comment...
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, January 27, 2009 - 8:23 PMAt this point I really have to comment on the healing that is/has been happening, due to Julia speaking out about what happened to her in ceremony with this guy. I am seeing the process of Silverbirch opening up to honesty in herself - about the rape she experienced with the same guy. This thread has been an expression of how truth comes to the surface - and that it does is a blessing.
I have been in an abusive relationship in the past and the thing is ... as a woman your afraid to speak out about what is happening. I was afraid no one would take me seriously or worse, that I was to blame. I even started to make excuses for the abuse and the person abusing. Abuse is a real mind trip.
I hope more women can do what Julia and then eventually Silverbirch have done (as well as the other women - although I haven't read those threads yet). It took courage and I am grateful. Thank you from the depths of my being. You have created more healing than you may be aware of by healing yourself in this way - to speak out.
For all those who are seeking and do not read these warnings on sites like this - how do we educate and inform? My question is what do we do with those in the role of facilitating, who use ayahuasca for these purposes (consciously or unconsciously)? Maybe its a feminine trait, but I want to protect and caution the innocent ones who have not experienced this and are in their hearts sincerely seeking truth and healing.
If we could all put our energy towards this now, thanks to the incredible insights from this thread's discussions. Suggestions?
Love,
k
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, September 4, 2007 - 6:57 PMA brown man touched a white woman... let's give him the death penalty! Shame on you. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, September 4, 2007 - 8:57 PMAlright Omar, you already posted exactly the same thing. And I'm sure that it's obvious why I deleted it. I thought that I'd banned you, but obviously something went wrong.
You already know that your comment, on top of its nastiness and total lack of value, isn't even *relevant*.
So stop trolling.
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, September 4, 2007 - 10:42 PMI apologize. I don't know what trolling is... but it doesn't sound Kosher. Consider me through w/ this subject. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, September 4, 2007 - 11:02 PMOk, cool. Thank you. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, September 4, 2007 - 11:38 PMthanks for your respect....
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, September 5, 2007 - 2:15 PM<< You already know that your comment, on top of its nastiness and total lack of value, isn't even *relevant*. >>
And not even true, either. So why keep advertising your ignorance, Omar? -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, September 5, 2007 - 7:22 PMDude there was a topic in this tribe a while back from a man about the same person of which you speak....
so none of this is really new.
if you are you....and going to that ceremony....and you know he is a man....you probably know his reputation (if you dont, its not hard to see what people are doing, and you should always keep your head about you).
yes i agree that he is supposed to be a teacher and a guide/bastion for you on your journey....
that is why i have only taken aya by myself. i dont have to worry about other people, ive made teh brew myself, so it is more personal etc....
i dont have to worry about defending myself, because it is just me.
and like i said, anyone in the position you stated should take ADVANTAGE of your heightened perception, see what he is doing, and kick that shit in its ass before he thinks he grew some balls and is gonna use them on you....
you have all the same tools etc that he does....its just a matter of standing up and using them.....or not using them at all, being nice and respectful and handling it like an adult....purely at your own discretion.
honestly youd have to be stupid to be taken advantage of IN THIS SITUATION. if you really want to have sex and this guy is for you.....THEN THINK ABOUT IT. MAKE YOUR DECISION, and go from there. the point of this medicine is to know thyself, and dont compromise or get caught up in things that do not behoove you....
being a responsible adult is hard.....and you are making yourself a victim by doing this and not just dealing with the problem outright at the time, as you said, aggressively.
then you will have broken him, and he is one step further down the line into shitsville....because every woman that goes through this and rejects that garbage outright and says that they want to be with the medicine, and not compromise themselves....then maybe he will wake up, get his head up from out his ass, and do the job he is supposed to be doing. with each concurrent attempt and loss, he will be that much less powerful, and that much more out in the open....dont let him feed....take control of him, because he is obviously putting that much of himself out there that you can take that and teach HIM....for gods sake.....
i have more to say, but you get my general drift..
i mean everyone already knows this guy is a turd.....so lets make him a flaming turd on a stick and see how he likes us then... -
-
This post was deleted by ben
-
-
This post was deleted by ben
-
-
This post was deleted by ben
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, September 5, 2007 - 11:57 PMyeh we all need to turn around and pull the stick out of our ass at some time or another.. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.This post was deleted by ben
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, September 12, 2007 - 2:48 PMI've really appreciated this thread though it's gone in some different directions.
One thing I want to do is just honour the women who have spoken out in this thread, and especially you, silverbirch, for not letting your ego get in the way and coming clean about your situation that I think women would benefit from knowing.
i'm sure there will still be many people - men and women - who still choose to work with Miguel despite other's experiences. That's completely their choice. But it does equip women with ways of remaining safe in our choices.
And I echo what others have mentioned about any sexual behaviour during ceremonies as just generally inappropriate. Would anyone be okay with the conductor of a wedding hitting on the bridesmaids in the middle of the wedding (while they're drunk)? Whether or not these men choose to pursue romantic or sexual relationships with their participants should be left until after ceremonies. In fact some teachers I've worked with have requested that part of the 'diet' before and afterwards involves no sexual activity. I'm not sure about the reason behind it but I've found it to help contain my energy and focus on the work.
It is important for the community of people participating in medicine ceremonies support each other, assist each other, share joyous stories, share sad or scary stories, share contacts, and share warnings. for our own protection and to keep people in check who begin to abuse their power and give a bad name to the medicine and its carriers.
as people in sacred work it's our duty to heal ourselves and assist on the healing of others, even when it means calling them on their shit and offering them solutions or being wiling to see them through their growth and transformation. the behaviour that has been discussed on this thread is not acceptable and I sincerely hope that a change will happen in this person, if he is a true medicine man.
blessed be. -
-
This post was deleted by ben
-
-
This post was deleted by ben
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Fri, September 14, 2007 - 11:42 AMoh
sorry, i hadn't read the 'real' thread on the shamanism tribe, i don't have tons of time to spend on my computer and this thread took some time. when i have a couple of hours to kill i'll check it out for sure.
the 'unacceptable' behaviour that i mentioned was simply the sexual vibes DURING ceremony. whatever happens afterwards is between two people but in a public ceremony i think it's appropriate to just hold off.
please shel don't send me personal emails, especially just because you don't agree with what i've said. keep it to the forums.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
get facts straight, troll.
Thu, September 20, 2007 - 9:04 PMjust to set the record straight, a rich upper class white guy takes advantage of his position in life to impress and/or assault women who hold him in a position of trust...NOT brown man touches white woman.
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 10:05 AMmind you
Miguel is NOT the only shaman who acts inappropriately -
-
This post was deleted by ben
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 1:35 PMShamans -- or ceremonial facilitators, in this case -- are not saints, any more than violinists or car mechanics or dentists are saints. But a shaman, healer, or ceremonial practitioner is in a position of trust, just as a therapist or counselor is in a position of trust. There must be a total trust in the benevolent intentions of the healer or therapist -- in the assurance that the healer has one's best interests at heart -- in order to receive the benefit of healing.
It is not uncommon for a psychotherapist or other counselor, in the intimacy of trust and dependence that is in a healing or spirit-caring situation, to have opportunities for physical intimacy with people they are supposed to be helping.
Add to that, a person in a position of spiritual leadership can evoke a sense of hero-worship, as well as implicit trust in the wisdom of his guidance. To trust in someone's leadership in any situation, not just spiritual situations, you have to trust their intentions.
Psychotherapists, doctors, gurus, cult leaders, priests, shamans, dentists, and other people put in positions of trust have been known to violate the trust of their clients, patients, followers, or parishioners by exploiting them sexually. This is considered unethical for a reason. Therapists, doctors, teachers and professors lose their licenses over this conduct for a reason.
When a man in a power position wants to seduce a woman who is in a state of hero worship, he may utilize "love" and the sense that "our connection is special" as a tool of seduction. But the "love" is not of course genuine, as shown by the way that such men don't care about the women whom they leave hurt.
All of this pattern is shown classically in this case.
But, as has been pointed out, Miguel is far from the only man to behave this way, including in the Ayahuasca world.
And all of this can and should serve as a learning experiemce for everyone involved in these communities, including Miguel himself.
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 3:24 PMthe unintended results of sex and chaos are beyond the realms of our own realizations...yet in many ways it serves as a mirror and a lesson to all -
-
This post was deleted by ben
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 8:37 AMshel....i ask what fuels and drives your heart? remember that yes, it's important how one is treated yet i suggest that it's just as important how one treats another... -
-
This post was deleted by ben
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 9:16 AMyou know what you do and the debts you have.....each of us has a role in this journey.....grandma and grandpa know all the injustices that take place and the aftermath, one does not forget yet one can forgive and the transgressor has their own debt to deal with....you know your role, my invitation is to remain in your heart and to see at what it is filled with as such overflows ones life... love is a healing that maybe possible to expand for one and all....know that this applies to each situation and person one faces and deals with....choose from love. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 8:44 PMThank you Bliss...That is really well said. It would be nice for us all to take this advice and come form our Hearts about what has happened here....it is too bad Shel b that you must play out your vendetta with Miguel this way. Your own Soul is where your debt and Healing lies. Not San Pedro...San Pedro doesn't need you,or me or anyone else... believe me......She can take care of the problem on Her own if there is or ever was One .....with you, Miguel or anyone else!
Be kind, come from your Heart, and let go of the need to be the Cop and the instigator here....Goddess will prevail!
Let our Heart's overflow our Life's and then see what happens next! Let the fun begin and give up the Ghost here......Let us Rejoice in the Healing, in the Great Healing......Let us come into the Oneness and know we all came to this Planet at this time to participate in that Healing...and thank you Miguel for bringing some of that to our Attention!
Thank all the Players for their parts we have played......Because what we all truly want is Love.....Kindness, and Peace....Let us focus on that for a change....
Love to you all...Jewel -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sat, October 6, 2007 - 7:45 PMbetween the pillar of mercy and the pillar of severity
centered between discernment and mercy
ever stands the self in process of becoming
its own truth
we
all of us
are the only masks of That One
we will ever see
with transient eyes
love is
yes
but
so is
accountability
for all our actions and words
whenever
the arrow misses its mark
life cannot always be buffered
as
even beyond love
there is just
the pure
unadulterated
paradoxical
-isness
of life
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Fri, October 12, 2007 - 9:01 PMI agree that in ceremony, it is very inappropriate. However, I feel compelled to reply as a man in our culture that it is expected that the man should make the romantic advances and know when it is not welcome. The US culture is still suffering from puritanical fear of sex as opposed to the older more mature Latin American and european cultures. I repeat, I do not condone sexual advances in ceremony. The traditional ayahuasceros would not allow women near them in ceremony because the desires among other things can distract one from the work . He may be treading on thin ice. To simply let a man know where he stands in a way that does not shatter his honor would be a more mature response. I believe that your overreaction has done more harm than his touch. But I wasn't there. In Latin America, a man is expected to turn his head at a pretty woman and most women feel complimented. In The USA men who tuurn their head s to look at a pretty woman are often considered as "bad boys". I think we all have to take a deep breath and relax a little bit about the subject. He will reap what he has sown and that will be the justice. I am sorry if you had a bad experience and I would never look kindly on that kind of behavior in ceremony but I often have seen people embraced in enduring hugs and at first thought it improper but later saw that in most cases it was purely innocent. Did you talk to him after the ceremony? Perhaps you could have regained your balance by confronting him and he would have thought twice before doing it again if that was his true intent. And women, please take it easy on the guys. They may appear to be tough but inside their hearts break just like little girls. -
-
This post was deleted by ben
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 5:35 PMalot of feelings on this subject, and alot of really good responces..... i feel that leading the ceremony is such a big responcibility!!! i just joined this site yesterday, i googled entities.... i had such heavy time... that took 6 hours till it started to let up and could open my eyes... the man who came to indo from peru was suppose to be the legend.... a teachers teacher.. though when i needed him most..... he closed the ceremony after 3 hours and was gone. i never saw anything like it... no matter how nice he sang,,,, it spun me out... so that u was still so high that u could not open your eyes and felt a sexual vibe, i'm so sorry for u!! we drink to become healthy ya..... to get over being abused,,,, 1 in 3 girls Probably more have been sexually abused as children, 1 in 5 boys... look around your group next time. some of these people.... its so important who leads the ceremony.... and we can't always know.... i was so having this demon battle the other night.. and when i needed someone sitting near me singing or just silence... people were doing questions and answers with florecent lights on..... i had to get up and walk out side.... but i could barely stand,,, sure my heavy time was my problems , but i really think not having a good guide this night when i needed one the most was could have been damaging. i realize now how lucky for who i've drinkin with up til now.. its all about the guides intentions.... being from the jungle does not mean good guide... and being from the west does not mean not a great guide.... no matter how good usually and good singing... any sexual vibe to anyone no matter how slight can be so damaging and hurtful.. no matter how good one sings or acts the rest of the time... when people drink and u feel good, u can become horny, its hour primordial nature, but a guide must understand the importance of they're position... its not a joke. they could traumatize someone worse... we don't know someones been throught before do we.
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 2, 2008 - 1:00 AMWho cares. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 2, 2008 - 9:06 PMinteresting that this topic should resurface once again...
i am not here to point fingers but to heal my own wounds about this. i have felt quite hurt and used and abused from a very similar situation, and what i've learned so far is that noticing that someone acted inappropriately is surely neccesary but is not the end of the recovery proccess. many of the women who are stepping up and voicing their concerns are still deep inside their own wounds about this.
there is no reason to justify his actions, no reason to assume that the issue is smaller than it seems. the only thing that needs to be done is to recognise that a deep hurt has occurred and to listen to the voices of the people who are in pain. it's amazing how quickly things can clear up.
this issue is not specific to ayahuasca circles. there are men who want to take womens' sexual energy and (vice versa) everywhere. there are people who manipulate, coerce, and abuse their power in every country and every city . there are also just as many people whose lives are honest, genuine, real and devoted.
i ask that we depend on nobody for our protection but our own spirit guides. anything else will simply be a bonus. blessed be all who have ever felt voilated and blessed be those who have voilated. because both are in need of a great healing.
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 3, 2008 - 11:45 PMI'm sorry for your experience and I respect your courage to speak out! I've noticed a gullibility amongst us Westerners to transfer and project onto leaders of ceremonies all sorts of grandiose stuff that isn't really there. Especially cross culturally. I've witnessed it in Peru and have seen European/American Men and Women idolize Peruvian/ Bolivian Shaman. A good teacher will let the medicine do the talking and get the fuck out of the way. Let the buyer beware. These people are not trained in psychology nor have they "worked" on themselves and their own issues. Do you really think any drug will do that? MDMA? LSD? DMT? THC? Hell no. My issues are not healed or over after taking those substances, even if I have reached conscious states of awareness. Awareness is not full time but constantly needs to be worked on. No Shaman, Priest, Guru, Counselor, Psychologist knows any better than myself. Good ones can show you your own inner healer. Others know how to take advantage of people when they are in a vulnerable state. I think people are putting too much value on the medicine. Yes, it is mind blowing, healing etc. but it is NO MAGIC panacea and it IS NOT going to solve the world's problems. Sorry hipsters. This is definitely not the first or the last time that a male shaman will take advantage of woman under vulnerable circumstances. Don't take any shit Julia and good on you for speaking out. There is NO EXCUSE for sexual coercion immediately after or during ceremony. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, November 4, 2008 - 12:53 AMYou got a recommendation on a good shaman to go to that won't try to be a guru, charge thousands of dollars or funagle some sex out of people? -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, November 4, 2008 - 10:35 AMthe most humble Percy Garcia in Iqutios, Peru!
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, November 4, 2008 - 1:03 PMI thought you were through with this subject? Before we all blame Miguel, let's keep in mind that we all have the potential to abuse. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, November 4, 2008 - 1:15 PMThat makes no sense...
We all have the potential to kill..
We all have the potential to rape...
But when you call yourself a spiritual healer... you just don't..
Psychos do, megalomaniacs do...
He made his choice, and crossed a border..
Simple and clear... -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, November 4, 2008 - 10:16 PMI hear you Geert. I was not trying to condone his actions but relay a sense of compassion for the fact that we are all human and that we all make mistakes. I think he needs to take some accountability.
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 16, 2008 - 6:41 AMThe whole scene going on now is as phony as it gets. Shamanism is not a group activity, and any time you start hearing about money, you know something is wrong. But we as Capitalists have ahard time understanding Ayahuasca because we are to busy mixing Her with money. I recommend going to the jungle and avoiding the cities. I have done Ayahuasca countless times and have paid for the ceremony with mapacho and a machete. Ya gotta search. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 16, 2008 - 8:51 AM>>>I have done Ayahuasca countless times and have paid for the ceremony with mapacho and a machete.<<<
And of course you grew the mapacho and forged the machete by yourself. :-) Actually, I guess you paid money for them. So, in effect, the mapacho and machetes were just money concretized into specific forms.
Now, there's nothing wrong with paying with mapacho and machetes if that's what the recipient wants. But machetes are relatively plentiful and cheap. Suppose what he really needed was shotgun shells, or flashlight batteries, or Bic lighters, or high-test monofilament fishing line -- all also valuable commodities. If you gave him a machete he didn't need, he would just have to go off trading it for something he did need.
Why not just give him money?
Of course, if you are bringing the mapacho or machete for a long distance, then the important part of the gift is your traveling to get it, to save the recipient the journey. I agree that that is a valuable gift. But the gift there is not the commodity -- which you paid for with money -- but your time and effort. Paying with time and effort can be done in many ways -- helping to clear a chacra, for example. That is a good thing. But that is not what you were talking about.
Now, it is true that some places in the jungle money is pretty useless. But you didn't say that. You said you're against money. I think money has lots of good uses, especially because the recipient can trade it for something he or she needs, rather than accepting what you feel like giving.
Money is not bad. It is just a universal IOU. There was money long before there was capitalism.
-- Steve
singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/ -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 16, 2008 - 9:06 AMWhen I hear people talking about how ceremony should be free - what I hear as the subtext is "freeloader".
Of course there are circumstances when a healer shouldn't charge; if the patient is too ill to be able to work in exchange and has exhausted their finances, but very often that's not the case. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 16, 2008 - 9:45 AMRichard-
> When I hear people talking about how ceremony should be free - what I hear as the subtext is "freeloader".
Me too.
These same people aren't likely to go to their 9 to 5 job and work for free, for the goodwill of all involved. And they're going to find how quickly the logic of their argument falls short when they have to pay bills or take care of their family.
When these people go to work for free, I'll be more likely to listen to their claims that others should do the same. Until then, it's hypocritical and nonsensical.
Veg -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 16, 2008 - 10:21 AMI'll gladly work for free . . . when I don't have to pay rent of mortgage, when I can walk into a store and get all the food I need without payment, when I don't have to pay taxes, when gasoline and cars are free, when I can get free medical and dental care, when clothing is given away, etc. I don't know anywhere in the world this is true.
-
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 16, 2008 - 10:32 AM"I have done Ayahuasca countless times and have paid for the ceremony with mapacho and a machete."
Ah yes, kind of makes you miss the good old days of the rubber boom, when you could own your own indian slave, and a ceremony would only set you back a piece of bread. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 16, 2008 - 12:35 PMYes, Michael, there was and still is slavery in this world, and most of it is connected to Capitalism, whether in an ancient or modern form. Rubber Boom,. Yes, and do you think there might have been a connection between the Rubber Boom and Capitalism? Maybe, huh? The natives of the jungle existed for countless millenia without the benefit of Capitalism. But you do make a good point, regarding Captalism and slavery. Well noted.
-
-
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 16, 2008 - 12:30 PMAs you an tell Julia, there are many people who cannot separate Ayahuasca from Capitalism and the money game, and have limited vision in this respect. This is probably the same thing that this Miguel Kavlin is doing with Ayahuasca and sexuality. I bet he charged a pretty penny, but according to many, Ayahuasca and money mix very well. Some people defend this type of interaction with Ayahuasca and see self enrichment as normal, while some believe that Ayahuasca and money are like oil and water. If you ever go or have gone to Peru or Ecuador, you will see the negative affect that this "legitimate" business is having. Most Westerners are blind to this poison and will defend money making as not only acceptable but natural and correct. Think in terms of televangelism. There are many connections to be made, but like I say, Westerners resent anyone disturbing their cozy positions at the top of the heap. There are many people in the U.S. who will defend the likes of Jim and Tammy Baker (Remember the sexcapades in that situation?), Jimmy Swaggart (sexuality and money again), Anal Roberts, et al. Steer clear of those who find money anything less than a necessary evil. I related to Marlon Brando when he said he hated money. I love Ayahuasca, but I hate money, and I give away thousands every year to help the people of the jungle. Also, I have seen people visit the jungle and pay thousands for a week of Ayahuasca and then refuse to give a hungry child in the street a penny. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 16, 2008 - 8:52 PMIf I'm reading your post correctly, this western slash and burn and consume cancer is spreading into shamanism. I agree, no one works for free, but fiat paper money is slavery. Enrichment to the tune of $400.00 to $1,000.00 per week is outrageous. Equally outrageous is to pass a hungry child in the streets to get your white ass over to your villa at the new shaman client condo quarters/hotel.
It appears capitalism is a religion that has its defenders. I work a 9 to 5 job. I do it for money. Unfortunately, I did not invent the game. I'm trying to find my way out of it. I thought Ayahuasca might show me an exit strategy.
I wonder how long it will take before Peru is completely paved over and shamans drive up in their Mercedes Benzes with gold capped teeth to dispense the vine of the Gods and collect money and fuck some bitches. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 6:45 AMVery well put Omarsky. But beware, there are many of us here who can't see past the veil of Capitalism. They believe that the shamans should be at the top-of-the-heap in the Capitalist structure they are imbedding down there in the jungle. Most of these people are staunchly Capitalistic and actually see nothing at all wrong with mixing money and spirituality. Maybe some day they will wake up, but it probably won't be any time soon. I have been in the jungle for years, and I've seen the ugly transformation that this influx of money has created. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 6:50 AM>>>I have been in the jungle for years, and I've seen the ugly transformation that this influx of money has created.<<<
I would very much like to hear more about your experiences. Your profile page does not give very much information, but it says you are in Bolivia. I would really like to learn more about what you are doing, what your work is, who you are working with, and especially the experiences that have led you to your conclusions.
Please help me learn more about where you are coming from.
-- Steve
singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/ -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:10 AMI second that.
-
-
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 6:15 AMHi Julia. Can you post something positive? I could be wrong, but it looks like you haven't posted anything for over a year. The one thing you did post is negative and disturbing. Were there other people assaulted? Do you have proof of your allegations? Do you have witnesses? You post this one thing and you are off on your merry way. I have been on a jury before. Unsubstantiated allegations can put people in jail for many years. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything.
Can you tell us what aya taught you? Did you learn anything from this plant? Let's hear something about the vine of the souls. Why did you take it? How many times have you taken it? What visions have you seen? -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:16 AMI don't think we'll hear from Julia again. She joined just to make the post that started this discussion. Hasn't been on Tribe for a long time. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 9:13 PMShe just joined to put this one post? Isn't that what a coward does? She comes in here, lays a turd and then runs away. She doesn't stay to answer questions? She posts a big slander against Miguel Kavlin and all these male champions step forward to her defense. She offers no thank yous, no nothing (that we know of). I attempted to challenge what she posted last year. People like Ben and Bliss called me names like "troll" and "flamer". I was born in America. One thing I notice about North Americans since living here my whole life... when males like a girl, they come to the female's defense... whether they know something she says is true or not. I think it's like a primitive, monkey reflex. They want to show the female that they can defend her, protect her, so they can win her, like a mating ritual. All logic goes out the window. All this chest beating to win a mate. If you scroll up, you'll see that this ben character deleted a few posts. So much for free speech. Real caveman bullshit from these assholes. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 9:57 PMi sense a tangent. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 10:15 PMHi Rebecca. I'd like to try an experiment. I would create a fake id. I'd pose as an attractive female and make a statement that some well known shaman threw his leg around my ass and put his hand up my skirt. Then I would disappear into the ether and wait for people to post replies. How many of those replies would be in my favor... no questions asked? -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, November 18, 2008 - 5:04 PMWhen I first joined tribe, I did so to share my positive experiences in ceremony with Miguel Kavlin. I was aware of Julia's accusation and in thanks to Miguel for conducting powerful ceremonies and his effort to bring this medicine to my world, I posted my truth about him on the Shamanism tribe. I agree with many who have posted here that the medicine is the sources that teaches us, but a Shaman holds the space, keeps it safe, and elevates the vine through their music (among many other things). I have sat in three ceremonies with Miguel and have truly benefited from the work we have done. We are a good fit together. The medicine still lives in me. And as for the money...I wish this karmic debt of capitalism did not exist, but as I look for a way out like Omarsky, I share my self, my time, my love and yes, my money with others. I also had the money to share with Miguel in thanks for the ceremony. I didn't have the money to travel to the Amazon. Now, maybe I will. Through the path of Aya. I am so glad she reached me through Miguel. I am healing and awakening and developing a relationship with spirit so much from these heart opening experiences. And it is helping me connect more deeply with the bodywork I do in my community. I came to tribe to sit in a circle and not cast a brother out, especially one who has brought so much to my life. This is my testimony. Thanks for listening.
Please be gentle and considerate with your responses to me. I've been sitting quietly and am learning to open up in this public forum.
Much love. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, November 19, 2008 - 6:59 PM"Hi Rebecca. I'd like to try an experiment. I would create a fake id. I'd pose as an attractive female and make a statement that some well known shaman threw his leg around my ass and put his hand up my skirt. Then I would disappear into the ether and wait for people to post replies. How many of those replies would be in my favor... no questions asked?"
the fact that you would consider such an act of dishonesty and manipulation simply to decipher how many replies would be in "favor" of this hypothetical charachter tells me that you have not reached the neccesary level of empathy or maturity neccesary to understand why someone would communicate their pain in such a way. assuming that most respondents would be falsely under the impression that you were indeed an "attractive female" who had a shaman "put his hands up" "skirt", my answer to your question is that most, especially those in a compassionate community such as this one, would respond in a way that shows that they are sorry that she (and the other women/men) had such a negative experience and will pray that she heals her wounds relating to the trauma. they may speculate a bit about the story and discuss its validity, but would ultimately hope for the best as far as miguel's practice and his other clients, that somehow these unfortunate events, free of blame, be prevented from happenning ever again.
i do not appreciate that, for whatever reason, you directed your question to me and i have no more to say about the subject , so expect no further response from me on the matter.
. blessed be.
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, November 19, 2008 - 7:11 PMYour response says you believe someone who posted an unsubtantiated slander with no follow up. You stated you sensed a tangent, which means you wanted me to expand on it. So I posed a question. You see the question mark at the end of my sentence. You answered that I am not as enlightened as you are, your majesty. I doubt you are more enlightened than anyone else in the whole world. You still refer to the unsubstantiated event as "unfortunate" and a "negative experience". Were you there? If not, you don't know shit to take sides. How do you know the accused is not the victim here? And as for your no further comments on the matter... who the fuck cares and take your hollyer than though attitude with you. I don't care what you appreciate. I'm not going to walk on pins and needles for you. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, November 19, 2008 - 9:10 PMSumming it all, from where you were coming, I see your last lines to Rebecca as really offensive, beyond the line, Omarsky. Things get rough over here some times, but somehow we understand that it is just earnest and heated hearts clashing. But I couldn’t understand yours. I might be getting old and fresh, but today I really have a hard time with curse words too, especially when they are used with the purpose to bring the idea lower than it already is.
No offense, but in my opinion you need to hear it. I would even ask the mediator of this community to delete your last post, but this is just what I think.
Regarding this tread, you can see that many people spoke for both sides. If you read carefully, the one who posted this tread was acknowledged by the accused. The issue is serious and should be pondered alike, no matter which side you take.
Regarding the “male” attitude towards the “female” counterpart, I guess that you are mistaken. From my perspective I think we do it just because it is the right thing to do, be us a man, a woman, whatever: defending a rock, a person, a plant, and idea. How can I explain it? There is no explanation. Some people run when things get ugly, some stay and fight. We are humans; I never cease to remember myself of that. Otherwise we would be born as something else. God knows what he is doing.
If we tend to be protective or shed courtesy towards a woman is because they are our counterparts in this life, our mothers, sisters, wife’s, daughters, the same way that a woman might think of us as their fathers, brothers, husbands and sons. It is not about desire; it is about family, and, in a broader way, a global family. Remember the Virgin Mary weeping for his son. Is there such a pain greater than this? A mother suffering for his son, a father suffering for his daughter, a wife, a sister? The same way that we also rejoice with them. There is also no greater joy when we do that and I am sure that they feel the same way when they rejoice with us.
We carry this feeling of belonging, and family, as in a global family, even though not valued by many, still run in the mind of many. Perhaps that’s why we care for each other, in truth.
Peace, -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, November 19, 2008 - 9:44 PMHello Rodrigo. I'm sorry you take offense to certain words. However, all words in this world should not be censored for the fact that you are censoring ideas. When I used those two words, I did not use them as an adjective to describe the person. I used them as emphasis in my ideas. I note in your post that some ideas and thoughts need to be "deleted" because you are a very sensitive person. Unfortunately, I do not believe in censorship. I would ask the moderator or mediator not to delete anyones posts that YOU don't like. This community is a mosaic of ideas and they should be without boundries. For example, if I were an atheist, Jew, Muslim or other religion, I might find your example of the virgin Mary as offensive. Jews do not believe that Jesus was god. Would you find it Ok to call for a deletion of your post based upon the fact that some people do not find Mary to be the mother of God? And I DO agree with you that people should be protected from sexual assaults, violence and other devices of destruction. Rebecca posted a reply to a statement I made. I posted a hypothetical, based upon a hypothesis. I did not say I was going to carry it out. She just assumed that I would do it. She then stated as you stated, that certain thoughts are offensive and in your case deleted or destroyed from this community. I responded to her reply by saying her name. She then came back with an 'Eww, gross, dont' say my name' attitude, after I responded with what she said to a statement I made. That my friend is arrogance and I was offended by that.
My sole premise is to say that we have a person that made a post on here... an accusation, a possible slander. She posted it with over 100 responses and never spoke of it again. In my reading of these posts, the vast majority found Miguel not innocent. Do you think he did what was laid out here? Don't you believe the accused and the accuser should be equally protected if there is no evidence of guilt? You have a short line where you find things offensive. You are free to respond or not to respond. I don't think you have the right to slice up reality to fit your tolerence level, especially since I never attacked anyone.
Peace and love are not merely words you put at the end of a statement, they are actions that you take in your daily life. You don't know me, possibly the original poster or possibly Rebecca. If you want peace and love, than act with peace and love toward me, Miguel, Rebecca and everyone equally and without prejudice or limits. P.S. Thank you for your post. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Thu, November 20, 2008 - 6:37 AMOmarsky, in my opinion you haven't quite crossed the deletion line, but your second to last post was close!
If it appears that someone is actually trying to make a point--even if I don't agree with it--I won't delete their posts unless they descend into completely irredeemable depravity.
I don't think that you're there, Omar, but you are sort of being a jerk.
This is a delicate issue; you can't dissolve the complexity of something like this by increasing the force of your opinion. And incidentally, there was more involved here than one anonymous person's posts.
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Fri, November 21, 2008 - 4:03 PMAs I said, I just think you needed to hear it, Omarsky. Ben made a point; the reason why I said that it was just my opinion to delete it, but you did chill my bones with the development of your second to last post. Worrying to care for a space has nothing to do with censorship.
As of the Mary and Jesus remark, I have seen some nice discussions about religion, creeds and beliefs over here; really good stuff. Bottom line, the ayahuasca, the reason for this community to exist, has no boundaries when it comes to good will.
I am glad to see so much cultural diversity and background together in this community. Mine just happens to be linked to Christianity. Whenever I use it to preach intolerance you can call my attention. I will appreciate it.
Thank you as well for your reply,
Peace, -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sat, November 22, 2008 - 4:47 PMChristianity is a myth based upon astrology and ancient Egyptian gods like Horus. There was no Jesus or Mary as you know it. Look up Zeitgeist The Movie and watch it. You can Google the movie real easily or watch clips on Youtube. If you want to really wake up, get away from monotheism. The fact that you use monotheism to promote censorship shows me the limitations of "religion" and your intolerance. I'm glad you're not moderating this tribe. Good luck.
PEACE OUT -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sat, November 22, 2008 - 8:32 PMOmar, for obvious reasons, I deleted your other most recent post in this thread.
It was a good example of the sort of 'irredeemable depravity' that i mentioned above.
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sat, November 22, 2008 - 8:30 PMMaybe one day you or someone else can enlighten us about what you know about this incident. I'd hate to be a moderator because of how hard it is deciding what is kosher and what is not kosher. I don't think you would allow an assault allegation $$$ on tribe unless you have evidence of its truth.
I'm not a jerk. Steve Martin was the original The Jerk.
PEACE OUT -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sat, November 22, 2008 - 8:38 PMWell, I try to err on the side of inaction. I'm just a janitor. We're all responsible for what's posted here, and i'll only delete something if it doesn't seem to have any meaningful content (like your last post, what was that about?)
Anyway, the only further information I have about this issue is that there were other, related claims, made by others. I don't know miguel, or much about him at all.
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sat, November 22, 2008 - 8:41 PMben:
would you please do us all a favor and delete this crap?
leave the poor guy alone already!
cheers,
nishu -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sat, November 22, 2008 - 8:57 PMthe whole thread?
Well, others have asked me to do so. I've considered it.
I don't have any way to know with certainty if the guy has done anything wrong. I don't know him personally, or anyone else involved.
But what right do I have to delete what someone else has chosen to make public? This is a public form--I'm not here to censor anything other than outright garbage.
My decision not to delete this thread has nothing to do with my opinion about the situation. Frankly, i don't have enough information to have much of an opinion at all. But i have to honor the choices of those who have posted here.
Incidentally, i doubt that the women who have posted about this were being dishonest or deceptive.
I would only consider deleting this thread if there were a large number of posts or private messages asking me to.
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 23, 2008 - 6:11 AMOmarsky, this whole Tribe site is highly censored. The site itself has incapacitated my ability to answer my messages. One memeber has asked me a question, but when I try to respond, I receive an "error" message telling me there is a problem on their side. Betcha this isn't happening with the rest. Next they will prohibit me from making comments. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 23, 2008 - 8:41 AMCould it be that Tribe is just plain full of errors and that kind of thing just happens all the time. Not too long ago, there was a month long period of time where the whole thing was down. I would bet money that the people that run tribe have no idea who you are, much less read a word you've written. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Sun, November 23, 2008 - 10:19 AMI certainly hope you're correct, but I was removed 2 years ago, not for obscenities or anything like that, but for being maybe a bit too dissonant. They simply erased me. I am not saying that I am so important that they would focus on me. Personally I am utterly unimportant. Thanks for the explanation. The shroud of paranoia covers me like a cold banana leaf. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 24, 2008 - 8:10 AM"The shroud of paranoia covers me like a cold banana leaf. "
Interesting. I've not encountered the tribe.net conspiracy theory yet, but I like it.
I don't think this thread needs to be removed. It was here. For a long time. People discussed in a variety of tones their opinions on this topic. Several women came forward and discussed the issue. If I'm not mistaken Miguel himself was on here and spoke of what he was doing, where he was going, and why.....if not here then another thread for sure. The dead horse had been beaten, and beaten, and beaten.......And then after the buzzards were done with the carcass, and the worms had taken the bones, along came Chullachaqui and Omar and started stirring the pot again. Which is fine, in a sense. If the topic needed some more revisiting then that's ok. But from my perspective it seems like Chull and Omar have been stirring shit up in lots of threads, usually in a fairly negative way, with rude comments and approaches. Personally, this doesn't seem like the kind of approach that I value, particularly when dealing with the sacred.
But that's just my thoughts on the matter.
Peace
Jav -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 24, 2008 - 8:29 AMJav-
>
But from my perspective it seems like Chull and Omar have been stirring shit up in lots of threads, usually in a fairly negative way, with rude comments and approaches.
>
Agreed.
They seem more like trolls than anything else. And in my experience, it's usually best not to feed the trolls.
Veg -
-
Unsu...
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, November 24, 2008 - 11:24 AMi believe the snake mother has placed this situation before us all to grow new toes for climbing ever higher into purity and truth.
wow i come back after months of not being around and this is the first thing i see. this situation will not go away. when i first confronted miguel with all of this a friend of mine was asking very seriously if this is what i really wanted. i was righteous, i went for it. i have had a lot of bad luck since then. i am sure i went about this the wrong way. i was not diplomatic , i was outraged. i acted while to hot. for those of you who question the info , good on yah, hearsay is hearsay, though a lot of hearsay is alot of hearsay. i think a lot of people resonated with this situation in different ways. with hindsight i wish i had figured out a better way. miguel and i are the same age and physically not disimilar, we are 1964 wood dragons, and now we are enemies. we should be working together but we are not. all i can do now is pray for all those affected to find healing for themselves . i know that miguel is trying to work with his issues but like most everyone is encountering it difficult to see around his ego. i am very sure he is not malicious and that he is only confused. i know that his family life has suffered directly from this. i also know that he was living a lie in respect to his family and i know there has been some healing along those lines, a lot of things that were said between miguel and i should not have been said and now cannot be unsaid, but i hope some day that miguel and i will meet in friendship in the light of her that we both and all so adore. blessed be.
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, November 25, 2008 - 6:19 AMHi Veg. Thanks for your positive comments about me. I challenge people to read all my posts and see if I am a serial "troll" with negative comments. I think the term "Troll" is negative and you are a hypocrite. "Let's put this guy in the good guy box and this guy in the bad guy box because I don't agree with him". These are the kind of comments that are at the roots of prejudice, hate, exclusion and violence. First you attack someone's humanity, then you dismiss wholly and without regard as garbage.
You have no firm basis to point the finger at me or to be judge and jury for me or anyone else. I have posted in all spectrums of perception, both softly and with emphasis. By the mere fact that you don't address the substance of my statements and questions, but take the easy route, and address people as trolls, shows that you are nothing but a mere troll yourself. Behave yourself. Fix yourself before you try to destroy others ie. "best not feed the trolls". That sums up my existence on this tribe? Grow up kid.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Thu, November 27, 2008 - 3:38 PMit is hard to hear your fear, yet in my experience with miguel i found it to be a good and positive outcome even with the fear of uncertainty. I can see how you would be disturbed, yet were you not able to make your own conscious decision? you knew what was going on around you. i personally had temptation brought to my attention as well just in a different form. ciggs. i feel as if it was the medicine helping claim yourself, bringing these thoughts up into the conciseness yet allowing you to work through them. just maybe it was a test? I saw miguel the next day after my ceremony out on the street and he was smoking the brand of cigg that i used to smoke, with the inclination of offering me one, when i had just used the medicine to help me quit the night before. why would he do this knowing i had every intention of fighting off my addictions? with this it was my choice to say no or yes which i said no. forcing choice and a test of integrity is how i saw this. your circumstance is a tough one, but it seemed you handled yourself well. good work, and thank you for sharing your experience. we all should be more aware of the surroundings and forth comings of our experience. yet i do not think this is any reason to not par take in a ceremony with a man whom has helped along with me, many other beings of our planet to gain perspective and knowledge of who it is they themselves are. are you not stronger, more knowledgeable, and free since your experience? I know iam, and i thank miguel for his "bringing me to the door" as should you due to the nature of this kinda of event. with love jpeace
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, December 1, 2008 - 11:22 AMFirst of all, thank you, Ben, for not deleting the thread. I don't go onto the threads much due to the trolls and personal attacks that run rampant in some tribe forums.
I was "befriended" on tribe by Sacharuna, I assume as a method to advertise his retreats. Once I made it clear I am not in a position financially to travel and do a retreat right now, despite my interest in the subject and familiarity with exploring states of consciousness, there was no further communication. I did mention him to a tribe friend in California who often pursues such retreats. She responded that she had been contacted several times by "that Sacharuna dude" and she "got a creepy vibe" from him. I found this puzzling, but now in light of this thread, it makes sense, she's a pretty perceptive woman, well-versed in ethnobotany and experienced with retreats.
Thank you Julie for having the courage to speak up. I am sure that it was not a kneejerk reaction, and that you thought long and hard about outing him as being out of integrity, while at the same time expressing appreciation for the value of the ceremony itself. While it sounds as if he has major boundary issues at the very least (especially since he is in denial about his actions or the significance of them), the concensus of those who have had personal interaction with him is that, yes, he is an accomplished, caring and respected Shaman, but one with a personal agenda that betrays trust from the retreat "students" when they are at their most vulnerable.
Thank you to the other women who revealed personal experience, for the greater good. No thanks to those with a "shoot-the-messenger, blame the victim" perspective. I think most responses were thoughtful and sincere, and I do not seek to attack Miguel, but I do know this is not simply a cultural misunderstanding of boundaries. This is not an isolated incident.
For a woman who has experienced such a thing, it is a traumatic event. Her word is good enough, she does not need to prove anything to anyone. Julia was careful not to demonize him, but rather to call attention to the discrepancy in his role as a ceremonial facilitator. That role does not end when the ceremony is over, and the lingering effects and processing of body sensations, thoughts and emotions may go on for days or weeks or longer.
When someone is in a role such a a ceremonial facilitator, a teacher, a counselor, a therapist, and even a massage therapist, that role does not disappear when the bell rings and the time is up. The nature of the role gives that person the upper hand in a huge POWER DIFFERENTIAL. This is a professional and ethical designation that puts the responsibility for the session on that person, not on the client/patient/student. This is not to absolve the recipient of his unwanted expressions of affection from responsibility, but clearly
their position after ceremony is compromised and vulnerable. The trust in the facilitator is not only trusting in them for the safety of the journey, for the purity of the sacrament, but in the ongoing experience. It is STANDARD PRACTICE (and this is taught) that there is NO personal intimate relationship to be had between the two parties. Not during the session, not after. Not ever. Or, if the mutual inclination has been considered and discussed for some time, and both parties agree to start a relationship, the professional relationship must end. This is not about anyone being uptight, as someone suggested, this is about maintaining professional boundaries where there is a Power Differential, to ensure the physical, psychological and spiritual safety of the seeker, and to ensure their trust in the facilitator is in good judgment. Remember, there was not a pre-existing personal intimate relationship. There may have been a friendship, but the professional boundary is equally important there.
I am a massage therapist. I'm a touchy-feely person by nature, who loves touch, whether in a professional setting or in a relationship, when mutually desired. I hate rules, restrictions and all that stuff, and I hate unsolicited advances. But clear boundaries serve a purpose. I had to learn some boundary issues in both my work and in my personal life the hard way. But I can assure you that for most people, even if consented to (and this was not the case here) blurred boundaries will result in guilt and confusion and possible damage and/or destruction of the healing benefits of the session. Clear boundaries and respecting the professional relationship will go a long way to cultivating the healing relationship that was originally intended, and may win you a life-long client and many positive referrals. Nobody is out to ruin anyone's reputation; a person's reputation is determined by their own intent and their own behavior. We all grapple with our desires at one time or another; this is something else, a pattern. I doubt that he is a sociopath, as so many testify to his greatness as a facilitator, and he probably is very good at that aspect of the experience. But he has a responsibility to the Shamanic community to be in integrity here, and if he is not, to seek help and peer support to resolve these issues.
May all involved be guided by the highest Light of insight, and may all be healed and released from the pain or punishment or good intentions gone awry. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, December 1, 2008 - 11:43 AMVery wisely said. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, December 1, 2008 - 8:04 PMhey richard! how are you doing friend?
***
please just leave the poor guy alone, for FUCK'S sake. what the hell has he done to any of YOU?
if you want to drink ayahuasca, well, then, drink fucking Ayahuasca!
you don't need to be around south americans in a jungle to do it for christ sake.
and another interesting thing to be noted -- most of the people that complain about this guy or any other
amazonian ayahuasqueros are ALL WHITE WOMEN!!!!! that should be a red flag people.
peace
n -
-
Unsu...
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, December 2, 2008 - 7:45 AM"poor guy" is not an appropriate term in this scenario, i think, three bolivian and one argentine woman complained directly to me about this, so the white woman thing dont work either om, it took a lot for those women to come forward due to the cultures they are from. two swore they would never participate in any ceremony ever again. its not so cut and dry the thing, and the south american tradition of aya usage specifically prohibits this kind of activity during ceremony. peace om nice to see you
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, December 2, 2008 - 2:47 PM>>>most of the people that complain about this guy or any other amazonian ayahuasqueros are ALL WHITE WOMEN!!!!! that should be a red flag people.<<<<
Even if this were true -- and apparently, according to Shel, it is not -- I am not sure what point you're making here. Perhaps they are all white women because Peruvians believe that white women are promiscuous, and thus feel more free to sexually harass white women than Peruvian women. Perhaps they are all white women because white women come from a culture that is less likely to accept sexual harassment in silence. Perhaps they are all white women because a particular shaman has a jones for white women.
I don't know if any of those things are true. But I would be very grateful if you would be a bit more explicit.
Why should their all being white women raise a red flag?
-- Steve
singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Tue, December 2, 2008 - 7:07 PMthanks for being civil.
its a valid question too, no doubt, i appreciate your raising important points.
im an indian from india. Many, definitely not all, but many westerners have very ignorant, untrue, and flat-out racist
ideas, notions, and preconceptions regarding India, or Indians, or HIndus, etc...
so if their stay in India, their experiences, fails to meet the quality-level of their expectations, and doesn't
match their racist viewpoints at all, then they will be shocked, disgusted, and feel as if they've been cheated somehow.
This doesn't only happen to Indians in India. It happens everywhere, everyday.
n -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, December 3, 2008 - 6:03 AMI agree with you that cultural misunderstandings occur all over the world. But you seem to have something more specific in mind. Could you let us know what it is?
-- Steve
singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/ -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, December 3, 2008 - 6:58 AMOm, just to address your points a little bit, I think you are correct, that indeed westerners often go in to a new cultural situation with a whole slew of borderline racist preconceptions which can drastically taint interaction. The same, IMO, is true of non-westerners going into a western culture. If a Chilean (I can only speak from the perspective of that which I knows) goes to the states, he/she goes there assuming all Americans are ignorant, or shallow, or materialistic, or mcdonalds eating obese tv watching weirdos. Having lived in the states for a long time, I know this to not be true. So you see, I think cultural misconceptions are unfortunately normal for human beings. This is part of our born ignorance (avidya) no? I suppose how you handle yourself in another culture, regardless of your cultural preconceptions, is what determines how people view you, or how well you fit in.
In any case, the point is moot in this conversation. Latin Americans in general, at least in Andean South America (I exclude Brazil and most tropical places, lol), are fairly conservative about sexual interaction. Women are normally pretty cautious about entering into sexual relations, and it is not considered appropriate for someone in a position of power (a teacher for example) to sleep with a student for example. It happens all the time anyways (part of the catholic background sexual dichotomy, lol). But, IF, notice *****IF****** Miguel is guilty of having slept with women in his ceremonies, this is not considered, as far as I understand, culturally appropriate. The fact is, and it's an ugly quality, but Latin American men love to take advantage of American women, based on a preconception (which is often, not always true) that American women are faster, and more willing to share physically, then most non-tropical Latino women.
:) -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, December 3, 2008 - 8:02 AMthanks for your understanding jav.
i hope i didn't step on any feet accidently.
peace -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Thu, December 4, 2008 - 6:23 AMwell said jav n steve, i would expound upon the subject a bit, i have travelled the world over and noticed basically that racism is the norm in every culture on the planet excepting a few. wherever there is cultural or ethnic diversity they will generally be at each others throats or at least cultivating animosity. so we as light workers must not participate in such rituals. be careful that you are not cultivating that field om, i find it easy to fall into berating parts of the US culture ( Escalade owners, stockbrokers, gang members, sex offenders,, assholes etc. ) the more positive approach might be to see that everyone is doing the best they can with the obstacles life has given them, ie IGNORANCE... from there just have compassion and breathe through our heart chakras at them and try to set a good example. peace and light to you all this is a very nice exchange -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Thu, December 4, 2008 - 11:44 AMI have just read this thread from start to finish and it seems to me that this exposes a problem/tendency that ALL people who work with powerfull entheogens should be aware of. I strongly believe that a genuine entheogenic experience brings with it a powerful sense of RESPONSIBILITY - a process know as 'liberation theology'. An 'enlightened' mind should be able to discern between RIGHT and WRONG, and taking advantage of any 'student' while they are under the influence of any substance admisnistered by a 'master' is clearly WRONG, not only because of the date-rape implications, but because it could actually subvert and injure the revelations of the entheogen itself.
The history of magic, mysticism, and entheogens is full of charatacters who take the power that they are given, and debase it towards their own needs (Cassanova, for example, was a Kabbalist of some note). There are 2 victims here - both the Master and the Adept - because the Master dilutes the power of his own revelation, as well as confusing the student. Sacred medicines are exactly that - SACRED - and human sexuality - tantric or otherwise - have no place in that sacredness. The eroticism of entheogens comes from the love of GOD, not the love of Man.
Having worked with powerful entheogens myself, and having numerous people ask me for guidance and information, I am intensely aware of the responsibility I have to express the message of the entheogen, and not the nuances of my own personality/sexuality. I have also seen numerous episodes and accounts of supposed teachers misusing this influence . I think it is very important for all would-be shamans to learn to tap the higher powers when in ceremony, and not be led by our baser human ones. And this should not only apply to shamans .... any person who gives any other person a powerful entheogen should be aware of the responsibility for truthful honest action that comes with that initiation.
As for the money debate, modern shamans in all countries receive a fee, wether it is cash, chickens, or rum. I have particiapted in authentic ceremonies with aya and san pedro in Peru and Ecuador at which there have been no 'gringos' and only local peoples, and the fee has never been more than $75 dollars ... which included food, accomodations, etc. Anyone travelling to Peru can find local shamans easy enough if they are willing to get off-the-beaten path and not simply answer the ad on the wall in the youth-hostel in Cuzco ... I suggest renting a small dirt bike and going to the furtherst out village in the lonely planet you can find ... usually the places they have 3 lines about are the ones you are looking for. Most of these shamans that I have met have been wizened old men with reputations as healers and I doubt you would get much of a sexual predator vibe off these maestros!
But in saying this - a word of warning! You may not receive the entheogenic experience you desire! I am of the opinion that native shamans in South America rarely administer ayahuasca (or San Pedro) in quantities that get you 'high' - the effect is generally homeopathic, and is more for the shaman to be able to read your energy fields, than the other way round. Terence McKenna reports a similar thing in 'The Archaic Revival' and says it was only after they bought several bottles of aya back with them and experimented that they acheived DMT type results ... If you want 'visions' you will have to ask for them ... and drink a lot more than the locals.
Westerners dont generally go to shamans to be healed - they go to get high, which is a fundamental difference. The shamans that operate around tourist towns, or offer tours, or come to the States know this, and they mix their brews appropriately, but this does raise the question of what is 'authentic' and what is the result of our own drug-cultures desires. This fact tends to make me suspicious of 'shamans' who charge hundreds of dollars for their medicine, or who enjoy the adulation of the american drug-culture. 'Shaman' is in fact - in my opinion - one of the most abused words in the english language today, and unless a 'shaman' is a healer in the truest sense of the word, then they are merely charlatans and imposters using entheogens for their own financial, social, and even sexual advancement.
The thread about Datura is also accurate - it is very dangerous. However nmumerous shamans in Peru use it with both San Pedro and Aya ... under the name 'tohe' ... ask your shamen if he uses it, and if so, find out if he will make aya without it ...
Oroc
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Mon, December 8, 2008 - 9:28 PMThanks for your post, Oroc. You've touched a number of issues that are, I think, interesting enough to deserve new threads.
I don't want to respond to tangential issues at great length here, but I'd like to quickly reply to one thing you discussed--the relatively small doses of ayahuasca used in traditional healing rituals.
My understanding of the practices of the ayahuasqueros with whom I've drunk ayahuasca is that the primary healing in produced by the ayahuasquero, through ritual, and that the ayahuasca assists this process. It's often considered unnecessary for the patient herself to drink ayahuasca at all. So this definitely contradicts the image of ayahuasqueros as acting primarily to guide ritual participants through a visionary space--or at least, it contradicts a conflation of the shaman's role as a guide and the shaman's ritual doctoring.
But, I will also say that the Ecuadorian ayahuasquero I spent an extended amount of time with very much appreciated my enthusiasm for preparing and drinking ayahuasca! Most people there--like here--simply don't *want* to drink ayahuasca, or are entirely uninterested in its effects. I certainly never noticed any stigma against maintaining an interest in visionary experience. Incidentally, I imagine that it tends to be something of a prerequisite for shamanic apprenticeships, which often do involve taking large doses of various powerful plants.
If you'd like to discuss this at length, start a new thread and we can copy our posts.
-
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, December 10, 2008 - 8:56 AMOROC: "Westerners dont generally go to shamans to be healed - they go to get high, which is a fundamental difference."
sup brother! how have u been?
i love the OROC quote above -- it is very true also about westerners trying to approach Indian/Hindu culture,
especially around tantric alchemy which deals extensively and heavily and with every little nuance and details
involved with the ingestion / preparation of sacred plants, entheogens, and psychedelic plants and animals; all in
combination with meditation techniques (hence: "Tantra" = technique in Sanskrit).
Technique. Kinda long separated from it's "Western definition" of basically "Sex, drugs, and rock and roll" lol.
Most white americans that smoke weed do it just to get high, without any ceremony, respect, appreciation, or gratitude.
And most don't meditate either, which is the true purpose of smoking Ganjah - to enhance, facilitate, and initiate deeply
meditative, Yogic states of Awareness.
bliss,
n -
-
Unsu...
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, December 10, 2008 - 9:15 AMthats a bunch of bull om, i really dont think you and oroc are correct, you wanna be 'cause it seems you have a bone to pick with whitey or western culture or both and such but i just dont believe it, i believe westerners show up at aya ceremonies because they have been traumatized by a society that thinks buying things is gonna fill that spiritual hole, not to get high, people buy things and go do them in their own spaces to get high. om you really got it out for ole whitey doncha, should watch it your racism is showing and it aint pretty....peace
" it is very true also about westerners trying to approach Indian/Hindu culture,
especially around tantric alchemy which deals extensively and heavily and with every little nuance and details
involved with the ingestion / preparation of sacred plants, entheogens, and psychedelic plants and animals; " DO YOU SEE HOW ARROGANT YOUR STATEMENT IS OR COULD APPEAR TO BE, IT IS HOSTILE AND ALL ENCOMPASSING REALLY PEOPLE LETS JUST BE PEOPLE AND NOT SAY THINGS THAT ARE INTENDED TO JUDGE, I MEAN I COULD SAY OH THAT RACE OF OMS'S THEY ARE SO RACIST AND HOW WOULD YOU FEEL? AND AS A STUDENT OF TANTRA AND VEDIC HOLISTIC MEDICINE I FIND IT ESPECIALLY RUDE YOUR STATEMENT EVEN THOUGH I CANT FIGURE OUT WHAT YOUR TRYING TO SAY WITH IT!. SEEMS LIKE YOUR JUST SAYING IN A ROUNDABOUT WAY THAT YOU HATE WESTERNERS , DONT BE A HATER OM I DONT REMEMBER YOU LIKE THIS. -
-
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, December 10, 2008 - 9:38 AMOROC: "Westerners dont generally go to shamans to be healed - they go to get high, which is a fundamental difference."
sup brother! how have u been?
i love the OROC quote above -- it is very true also about westerners trying to approach Indian/Hindu culture,
especially around tantric alchemy which deals extensively and heavily and with every little nuance and details
involved with the ingestion / preparation of sacred plants, entheogens, and psychedelic plants and animals; all in
combination with meditation techniques (hence: "Tantra" = technique in Sanskrit).
Technique. Kinda long separated from it's "Western definition" of basically "Sex, drugs, and rock and roll" lol.
****MANY white americans that smoke weed do it just to get high, without any ceremony, respect, appreciation, or gratitude.
And most don't meditate either, which is the true purpose of smoking Ganjah - to enhance, facilitate, and initiate deeply
meditative, Yogic states of Awareness.
bliss,
n
****EDIT: SHELBAC, note that is said MANY (i changed it from "most", thought it was inaccurate). and not ALL. My words are certainly a true representation of my experiences, what i have seen / experienced / lived. Peace.
n -
-
Unsu...
Re: CAUTION! Miguel Kavlin, shaman acting inappropriately and out of integrity
Wed, December 10, 2008 - 11:37 AMhaving lived in south america for 20 years as a minority of one in many situations, i have learned how important it is not to lump people together, it can truly mislead yourself down twisty roads of non understanding
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
