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i'm not mocking anyone here, first of all. that's a fact, because, er, i myself am/was searching for just that. well, i don't have much savings so i can't afford it anyway, and there seems to be no such thing as an affordable ayahuasca experience that you can plan ahead of time with an authentic shaman somewhere in south america.
maybe its because these things shouldn't cost money. like dealing tarot cards or giving advice, if you're gonna help someone, why are you charging money for it?
i understand that the shamans also need to make a living, but....doesn't paying for something so spiritual and personal and beautiful kind of ruin the whole point? i mean, paying out of gratitude what you can afford, is one thing. but these ridiculous over 100 dollar prices, apparently often in the thousands....why so much?
i'm not just whining over bitter grapes. the more i think about it, the stranger it sounds to start a business in something eh, spiritual...
okay, enough of my criticism, i had a wonderful experience with aya with some people i met from online who had previous experience with it. there wasn't a price, i trusted my instinct, all went well. a bit too well, lol, as i was expecting my soul to be torn apart or to face a bleak deep part of myself, but it turned out to be quite pleasant and reminded me of shrooms and dmt.
so im wondering, whats the solution. if i want to learn from aya and grow and maybe heal something within me, shall that also come from intuition, a good place, not just purchase and receive the results?
how about serendipity and knowing that one day i will come across aya again, or maybe ill book a trip to peru without any plans connected to the business mentioned in this post. maybe i'll happen to meet someone there, without explicitly asking around too much, and fate will bring me to it?
any responses appreciated, both for or against, or evne in the middle about this topic.
ps i love plants, and hope to do more with them and teach others in the future. for now im a student XD
maybe its because these things shouldn't cost money. like dealing tarot cards or giving advice, if you're gonna help someone, why are you charging money for it?
i understand that the shamans also need to make a living, but....doesn't paying for something so spiritual and personal and beautiful kind of ruin the whole point? i mean, paying out of gratitude what you can afford, is one thing. but these ridiculous over 100 dollar prices, apparently often in the thousands....why so much?
i'm not just whining over bitter grapes. the more i think about it, the stranger it sounds to start a business in something eh, spiritual...
okay, enough of my criticism, i had a wonderful experience with aya with some people i met from online who had previous experience with it. there wasn't a price, i trusted my instinct, all went well. a bit too well, lol, as i was expecting my soul to be torn apart or to face a bleak deep part of myself, but it turned out to be quite pleasant and reminded me of shrooms and dmt.
so im wondering, whats the solution. if i want to learn from aya and grow and maybe heal something within me, shall that also come from intuition, a good place, not just purchase and receive the results?
how about serendipity and knowing that one day i will come across aya again, or maybe ill book a trip to peru without any plans connected to the business mentioned in this post. maybe i'll happen to meet someone there, without explicitly asking around too much, and fate will bring me to it?
any responses appreciated, both for or against, or evne in the middle about this topic.
ps i love plants, and hope to do more with them and teach others in the future. for now im a student XD
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 7:09 AM>>>doesn't paying for something so spiritual and personal and beautiful kind of ruin the whole point?<<<
I think you're right. Being a teacher of little children is spiritual and personal and beautiful, so let's pay crappy wages to teachers. Being a nurse -- comforting people, caring for them, cleaning them -- is spiritual and personal and beautiful, so let's pay crappy wages to nurses. Working with homeless people with schizophrenia -- finding them shelter, getting them work, finding them ways to get enough to eat -- is spiritual and personal and beautiful, so let's pay crappy wages to social workers.
Even better, let's expect people to do this kind of work for free.
And then we wonder why we have so few teachers, nurses, and social workers.
Being a shaman -- spending decades learning your skills, risking your life, healing others -- is spiritual and personal and beautiful, so let's pay shamans crappy wages, or, even better, expect them to do all of this for free.
And then we wonder where the next generation of shamans is going to come from.
-- Steve
singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 7:23 AMgood point, i guess the question is, whats the actual line between a profession, as you mentioned, teachers, nurses, that we are used to, and how do we recognize something less concrete and tangible, something spiritual as a profession vs spiritual assistance. what were shamans paid in the past by people of their area/tribes or were they bartered with? i really don't know how it worked before westerners came into the picture and introduced capitalism, hence the raising of prices to higher and higher amounts on these tours.
i didn't mean to sound so selfish, i don't think that shamans should be paid crappy wages, you made your point very well.
what i'm criticizing or asking, is the tainting of legitimate, honest ayahuasca ceremonies with people just looking to make a buck above all else, where it becomes more an enterprise rather than being motivated from the heart. there must be a way to balance making a decent wage and running these tours.
i also didn't realize that the people doing the ceremonies relied on only this for their income. i thought it was something one chooses to do regardless of the money involved.
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:06 AMIn Peru, at least, being a curandero (healer) is a professional choice. It's an error to call them or consider them as spiritual leaders. They are not Guru's, Saints, enlightened beings, etc. On an external level, they are people that have dedicated their lives to learning the plants and the plant spirits and how to use them to heal body, mind, and spirit. For many of them this is a full time job. For others, survival depends on driving a mototaxi, farming, or other work. They are paid little by the people who have little. Sometimes a chicken. Sometimes less.
Very few have become quite successful, even famous. Generally because they get very good results and work really hard. I have personally not seen any of them living extravagant lives. Much of the money they make seems to be distributed out to others or used to acquire more land for preservation or to improve their centers.
We have a twisted view of what a shaman is largely because of a number of B.S filled fictional books passed off as fact. We also are a very confused culture - empty in many ways of our connection to the land and our connection to Spirit. In the loss of that connection our culture has lost common sense and discernment. We're also highly influenced by the idea of the "Noble Savage", which was started as a fictional way to idolize the few remaining primitive people after most of them were slaughtered.
And why, in this cultural paradigm, is it OK for someone who can put a ball through a hoop or hit a ball with a stick or be born with a freakishly beautiful face be given tens of millions of dollars? And then we get all bent out of shape if a curandero makes a few hundred dollars for working his ass off in a ceremony. Forgive me. I don't get it. -
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:12 AMthanks for such a detailed response, it gives me a lot to think about.
now that i know it is definitely a profession, it makes a lot more sense why the prices are as they are.
it is strange to come from a culture where we have so much money in comparison to the average person living in peru.
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 9:06 AMAnother factor with pricing is how much it costs for the curanderos to maintain gringos. We're expensive and very high maintenance. The centers that cater to gringos have flush toilets, showers, mosquito netting, comfortable beds, nice mats for ceremonies, clean water, good food including expensive things like vegetables, fresh fish, etc. Plus all this has to be transported miles out of the city - on a regular basis - usually several times a week. Plus there's the staff members to be support - kitchen, grounds upkeep, room cleaners, laundry, etc. All of which costs money.
And, it tends to be seasonal with a large influx of gringos in the summer (their winter) and very few for the rest of the year. But the center still needs to be kept up, and staff still needs to be supported.
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:13 AMRichard-
As always, your sharing is good medicine.
> In Peru, at least, being a curandero (healer) is a professional choice.
The same is true in the tradition I'm initiated into (the Ifa'Orisa tradition of the Yoruba people of Nigeria). Being a healer, diviner or herbalist is no different than being a doctor, or barber or taxi driver. These are jobs, and like all jobs, the people doing them deserve to be compensated.
Again, if one were to spend any serious time around indigenous cultures this would be as obvious as the nose on one's face. To have such strong opinions about structures and ways of exchange that are totally beyond one's realm of experience and understand is, I feel, silly, at best.
>
And why, in this cultural paradigm, is it OK for someone who can put a ball through a hoop or hit a ball with a stick or be born with a freakishly beautiful face be given tens of millions of dollars? And then we get all bent out of shape if a curandero makes a few hundred dollars for working his ass off in a ceremony. Forgive me. I don't get it.
>
Me neither.
And unlike a sport star or super model, a shaman may actually save someone's life. Don't they deserve something in exchange for that? We don't think twice of paying a medical doctor to do the same, but react with outrage when an indigenous shaman receives payment - even substantial payment? There is, at best, a gross double standard.
Veg -
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:22 AMveg,
okay, so now i understand that being a shaman/healer is a job and not a voluntary service done for others. its an entire profession that one makes his or her living by. if i had known that i wouldn't have had the opinions i had earlier XD
i associated 'shaman' with occult practices in western society, such as tarot card readings, or rituals/spells being done to help someone. there is a taboo with charging too much money for these practices. -
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:30 AMAscendant-
I understand.
As Richard said, the idea that most people have about what a "shaman" is tends to differ dramatically from the reality as it exist in indigenous traditions. Spending time with indigenous Elders, in a clear and respectful way, can do a lot to help us understand things in a real and rooted way.
Veg -
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:42 AMveg,
well i hope i have the opportunity one day to visit a country where i can learn from people and not just books and documentaries.
maybe peru, or bolivia, someday.
i have much respect for indigenous culture and people, as much as possible without having met or interacted with anyone who is a part of it.
im very interested in plant medicine, for healing both myself and others, but the only resources i have are media, not actual people, for the moment.
are there any places or organizations you personally know and would recommend? :)
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:08 AMSteve-
I couldn't have said it any better.
People who expect spiritual work to be done for free completely fail to understand the nature of exchange and balanced. They've also clearly never spent any time with indigenous people, because in the indigenous traditions I'm familiar with there is *always* an exchange. The bigger the work, the bigger the exchange.
I always find it "rich" to hear people raised in Western culture talk with such authority about how people living in indigenous societies should behave, and what they should receive for work these same Western folks couldn't possibly perform on their best of days.
It's shameful.
Veg -
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:13 AM'its shameful'
does this mean i sound like an idiot? well, ya learn something new everyday.... -
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:18 AMAscendant-
I was posting a note to you at the same time you were writing. I hope my p.s. clarifies a bit.
Veg
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:16 AMp.s. Ascendant, I wanted to be clear that I'm not directing my comments at you as an individual, but rather at the ideas around exchange and indigenous people.
Veg
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:33 AMmy understanding is that for traditional medicine it is customary to make a donation at the end of the ceremony. someone no doubt tells you the suggested donation but no one is turned away for not having enough money. -
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 8:42 AMembrace,
interesting point, in which traditional medicine are you speaking of, from what country/type? -
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 10:35 AMthe "donation" idea is a good one but it doesn't work. I was with Juan Tangoa 15 years ago, for two years. Donation only. there were no gringo passengers, just the locals coming by for healings, for 'la purga'. It was donation only and they rarely donated. Frustrating for me as he had 7 children to feed and clothes to buy and schoolbooks, etc. which meant that I gave the money to purchase those things. finally I told Juan that I'd collect from them as they came into the ceremonial space, but he wouldn't let me do that. so I continued paying for the family until I began bringing groups here, then Juan did his work and he was well paid. He continues doing this work and the locals continue not paying him but he has the "gringos" coming more now and makes his living this way. thank god. It is for us "gringos" that the profession of shamanism continues to live and is beginning to thrive. Before we took interest, the children and grandchildren had no interest in becoming a curandero. There was no "money" in it and not much respect shown for it as the missionaries came with their medicines, money and clothes and convinced the locals that the curandero was lost in superstitutions. When we arrived, we paid not only money, but vast amounts of respect to them and their knowledge. Now they children want to learn the "old ways". they see their grandfather curandero buying the clothes, schoolbooks and putting food on the table. they see the way we pay homage to them, and most importantly, they see lives changing and people being healed.
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Thu, November 20, 2008 - 5:12 PMascendent -- "interesting point, in which traditional medicine are you speaking of, from what country/type?"
my experience in ecuador with the quechua speaking people who claim to be pure blooded incan decent. i lived with a family for six weeks not once did i give any money to them. i often bought the food at the market for our meals. i paid the passage for the shaman from peru to ecuador.
i was debating whether to create a place where people who want to volunteer get hooked up with projects involving these people in the amazon. a place where you register as a volunteer with a list of skills and experience and that gets posted on the site or as a project contact in the amazon and that gets posted in a companion listing.
what do you think? -
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Fri, November 21, 2008 - 6:02 AMembrace, is it necessary to speak fluent spanish when seeking something like this?
beyond that, your idea about creating a place where people volunteer sounds really interesting. ive never been to south america nor a rainforest but i have been thinking about it for some time. im in germany now, where are you if you dont mind me asking?
im currently learning german, can hold decent conversation with it already, and ive forgotten my spanish but id pick it up fast if i heard it again. im american.
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 9:19 PMHi Ascendant you are right, there is something intrinsically wrong with the mixture of money and the spiritual, but you have to realize that Steve and his friends are from the land of Jimmy Swaggart, Joe and Tammy Baker, Oral Roberts, the Reverend Ike and all the rest who have made religion into a business. Please feel free to mock. Most on this site are quite incapable of separating money and spiritualism. If ever you decide to journey to Peru, I will personally help you find a great curandero who is not into the money loop of our Capitalistic Curanderoisim. Your views are quite legitmate, but don't expect to get any validation from these people, who are probably lawyers, businessmen, self-important academians, etc. Shakespeare had the right idea when the character in Henry VI said, " Let's kill all the lawyers". -
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Unsu...
Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 10:09 PM"i associated 'shaman' with occult practices in western society, such as tarot card readings, or rituals/spells being done to help someone. there is a taboo with charging too much money for these practices."
i don't know what it's like where you live, but i have been doing tarot readings for years now and only just recently surmounted the obstacle of doing them for free. i now charge money for them and couldn't be happier. infact, most other readers charge $50-75 an hour for a reading, and in most places, there's no question about it whatsoever. that's about as much as a massage (actually less), a consult with a therapist, and it's less than a doctor would charge to tell you there's nothing wrong with you. there are many MANY tarot readers and ceremony leaders who do rituals/spells who charge fair prices for these services as well. not sure what you mean by "too much money".
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Tue, November 18, 2008 - 2:13 AMOn another thread, you said:
>>>I have been in the jungle for years, and I've seen the ugly transformation that this influx of money has created.<<<
In your current post, you say:
>>>If ever you decide to journey to Peru, I will personally help you find a great curandero who is not into the money loop of our Capitalistic Curanderoisim<<<
And, on another thread, you also say:
>>>I knew Don Solon years before I drank with him<<<
As I said before, I would very much like to hear more about your experiences. Your profile page does not give very much information, but it says you are in Bolivia. Apparently, in addition to living in Bolivia, you have a lot of experience in Peru.
I would really like to learn more about what you are doing, what your work is, who you are working with, and especially the experiences that have led you to your conclusions.
Please help me learn more about where you are coming from.
-- Steve
singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/ -
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Unsu...
Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Tue, November 18, 2008 - 7:59 PMhey steve, at first i thought your post was addressing me and/or my previous post. help me catch up here, who are you talking to? *smiles* -
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Thu, November 20, 2008 - 9:09 AMheh, steve was talking to chula.
and i wanted to reply to you: ive known tarot card readers who read at clubs/bars or occult bookstores, are there other places you can work at?
the 'taboo' i heard about is what inspired the question i asked in this thread originally....does charging money somehow taint the art and tradition or something spiritual, i.e. some people will get into it for the wrong reasons, for the money, and its well known that thare are many swindlers who work in the psychic/new age/spiritual arena.
the dilemma is that no one can measure or prove that something spiritual happening or knowledge/advice given was actually true or real, its not concrete like a physical sickness being cured or asking an advisor how to run a business.
thats what makes it confusing, when a profession is involved with such spiritual and often intangible results, how to protect people from being fooled by swindlers and how to determine when it has become more of a capitalistic enterprise to rake in the most cash versus a humble way to make a living based on something positive and honest. -
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Thu, November 20, 2008 - 9:34 AMascendant-
> thats what makes it confusing, when a profession is involved with such spiritual and often intangible results...
Based on my experience with indigenous Elders, the advice and results offered are quite tangible. They have to be tangible, because, in many cases, someone's life (or the life of the community) depends on it.
People who offer fuzzy advice and intangible results are quickly recognized by the community. Needless to say, their business dries up quickly. Shamanism is ultimately practical and pragmatic. People who don't offer tangible results don't have many clients.
Veg -
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Thu, November 20, 2008 - 5:37 PMveg - quite so. the community truly relies on the local curandero. he will not turn anyone away. you will find out a lot about a curandero by meeting his family and seeing his relationship with people in his community.
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Re: reasons for seeking an expensive ayahuasca experience in a land faraway?
Fri, November 21, 2008 - 5:59 AMveg,
good to know, maybe one day when i visit south america ill be fortunate enough to find a reputable Elder XD
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