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Let me tell you about myself and this will give you some insight into what I am trying to find out.
Two years ago I read the Kira Salak article in NatGeo and I was intrigued and yet absolutely terrified. I have had years of
depression. I then checked out Blue Morpho and could not coordinate the time I had off from work with the starting date of their
retreats so I went to Iquitos (Spirit Quest- nice place!) and summoned every ounce of personal strength to drink on the first ceremony. I don't know if this is common but I have not been as nervous about anything as that first ceremony. Fear of the unknown or being totally
overwhelmed or ..?
Well, I drank and waited and four hours later realized that almost nothing (aside from world class diarrhea) happened. The following
day I felt defeated and hopeless. I then left Iquitos feeling like a total failure (having spent $3000 for airfare + retreat fee). The host mentioned that it would take at least three ceremonies to have any lasting effect on depression. I figured that I missed out on one
so what was the point of going through this if it is not enough to help.
A few months later I once again went to Peru and found someone else. It was less comfy accommodations there but not bad. I did get up the courage to drink there but I was still VERY nervous of the effects. As the effects came on I was so scared that I passed out cold!!! I
cannot imagine that what I experienced is the same that everyone else experiences. It was dark and quite alien feeling.
At that point I had some disagreements with the host and I felt that I could not really get anything from this and basically gave up on
the idea. (probably due to fear rather than any REAL reason)
In the spring of this year I once again revisited the idea when I saw the video clip by Alistair Appleton (Man who drank the universe video.google.co.uk/videoplay I then booked a trip to Brazil and had a much better experience
at Silvia Polivoy's place. I drank 4 times, three of which were negative but one was quite blissful and profound.
I apologize on the length of this but here is the point of this; I feel it was beneficial but I have not seen any of the life-changing
benefits that I keep reading about. I have not had any visions. I did have some amazing insights but nothing that would warrant the
expense (time, money, stress) that I have invested.
Basically what I am hoping to discover is; do you feel based on your experiences that some individuals just might not be "wired" to
benefit from this? Or do you feel that I just need to "jump in to the fire" and take a much larger dose. The largest dose I took in
Brazil was horrible and I spent most of the night just waiting for it to be over while thinking "never again, never again". In the
morning I felt like "well, I'll try again but not as much" I had a horrible experience but I still had not taken enough to produce
visions.
I did buy "Metamorphosis" and I feel that the ceremonies in the film were much more intense than I have experienced but I cannot imagine anyone going through that level of fear and misery and actually doing it again based on MY experiences.
To sum up:
1) I have not got the results I have read or heard about
2) My largest dose was one of the worst experiences of my life and yet was not enough to give me any visions.
3) Do I need to be patient at this dose and wait for benefits? Or
4) Take a near-heroic dose to achieve benefits.
5) Is everyone's experience of Aya this hard and I am just being a sissy about it? Do I need to just take a cosmic dose and
"hang on"
6) Do you feel that your benefits come from: insights DURING the session, after the sessions, the visions themselves, or from a
renewed perspective in the days following?
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Two years ago I read the Kira Salak article in NatGeo and I was intrigued and yet absolutely terrified. I have had years of
depression. I then checked out Blue Morpho and could not coordinate the time I had off from work with the starting date of their
retreats so I went to Iquitos (Spirit Quest- nice place!) and summoned every ounce of personal strength to drink on the first ceremony. I don't know if this is common but I have not been as nervous about anything as that first ceremony. Fear of the unknown or being totally
overwhelmed or ..?
Well, I drank and waited and four hours later realized that almost nothing (aside from world class diarrhea) happened. The following
day I felt defeated and hopeless. I then left Iquitos feeling like a total failure (having spent $3000 for airfare + retreat fee). The host mentioned that it would take at least three ceremonies to have any lasting effect on depression. I figured that I missed out on one
so what was the point of going through this if it is not enough to help.
A few months later I once again went to Peru and found someone else. It was less comfy accommodations there but not bad. I did get up the courage to drink there but I was still VERY nervous of the effects. As the effects came on I was so scared that I passed out cold!!! I
cannot imagine that what I experienced is the same that everyone else experiences. It was dark and quite alien feeling.
At that point I had some disagreements with the host and I felt that I could not really get anything from this and basically gave up on
the idea. (probably due to fear rather than any REAL reason)
In the spring of this year I once again revisited the idea when I saw the video clip by Alistair Appleton (Man who drank the universe video.google.co.uk/videoplay I then booked a trip to Brazil and had a much better experience
at Silvia Polivoy's place. I drank 4 times, three of which were negative but one was quite blissful and profound.
I apologize on the length of this but here is the point of this; I feel it was beneficial but I have not seen any of the life-changing
benefits that I keep reading about. I have not had any visions. I did have some amazing insights but nothing that would warrant the
expense (time, money, stress) that I have invested.
Basically what I am hoping to discover is; do you feel based on your experiences that some individuals just might not be "wired" to
benefit from this? Or do you feel that I just need to "jump in to the fire" and take a much larger dose. The largest dose I took in
Brazil was horrible and I spent most of the night just waiting for it to be over while thinking "never again, never again". In the
morning I felt like "well, I'll try again but not as much" I had a horrible experience but I still had not taken enough to produce
visions.
I did buy "Metamorphosis" and I feel that the ceremonies in the film were much more intense than I have experienced but I cannot imagine anyone going through that level of fear and misery and actually doing it again based on MY experiences.
To sum up:
1) I have not got the results I have read or heard about
2) My largest dose was one of the worst experiences of my life and yet was not enough to give me any visions.
3) Do I need to be patient at this dose and wait for benefits? Or
4) Take a near-heroic dose to achieve benefits.
5) Is everyone's experience of Aya this hard and I am just being a sissy about it? Do I need to just take a cosmic dose and
"hang on"
6) Do you feel that your benefits come from: insights DURING the session, after the sessions, the visions themselves, or from a
renewed perspective in the days following?
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 8:34 AM1) I have not got the results I have read or heard about
Everyone is different. Try not to expect too much and allow yourself to open to what is there.
2) My largest dose was one of the worst experiences of my life and yet was not enough to give me any visions.
Some people never get "visions" but the medicine still works on you even if you aren't aware of it.
3) Do I need to be patient at this dose and wait for benefits? Or
Maybe....
4) Take a near-heroic dose to achieve benefits.
Depends on your particular disposition and what you need.
5) Is everyone's experience of Aya this hard and I am just being a sissy about it? Do I need to just take a cosmic dose and
"hang on"
For me, I tend to do the cosmic dose route. And believe me, it's hard, terrifying, and definitely not "fun". But healing is often associated with the destruction of old habits, worldviews, and attachments.
6) Do you feel that your benefits come from: insights DURING the session, after the sessions, the visions themselves, or from a
renewed perspective in the days following?
All of the above. Often the most deeply profound and long lasting changes result from the way we integrate our experiences into our lives. For me, the sessions are difficult and profound, but even more profound is having to get back to my life and work these new insights into my everyday awareness.
Basically, my advice is to not expect too much. Listen to your body and trust. If you trust the medicine, fear is not an obstacle. If you trust the medicine patience will be a tool to help you progress. It is powerful, but there are so many factors involved including our own worldview, fears, insecurities, expectations, focus, awareness, and intentions. Aya is like a school were we learn to properly communicate with her for the benefit of everyone involved.
Good luck. Your work has already began. There are no instant results.
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 8:52 AMI slept through my three first aya ceremonies. Put me right out. And I noticed the effects and changes months after drinking.
I am a firm believer in going through a process. One or two ceremonies at a time I do not understand. Highly recommend at least two weeks or more at a few per week, some purification or preparation ahead of time like a preparatory dieta, or fast.
Why do we think there's a quick fix to things that took a lifetime to acquire? There are no quick fixes, folks. Takes work and time to get our heads together. Be patient and understanding with yourself. If you want it commit to the long haul. That way, if it's sooner or later doesn't matter. -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 8:56 AM"I am a firm believer in going through a process. One or two ceremonies at a time I do not understand. Highly recommend at least two weeks or more at a few per week, some purification or preparation ahead of time like a preparatory dieta, or fast."
Ding ding ding. I 100% agree with this statement.
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 10:34 AMHi Embrace,
Thanks for the reply but honestly I'm not looking for a "quick fix", (although everything I have read about AYA specifically says that this is one of its attributes, - Nat Geo article, website after website, an article in New Scientist, they all claim life changing healing after even just a few ceremonies)
I would be content with just something to tell me that what I have done was for a reason. Even you in your post said that you noticed changes months later. That's all I'm looking for yet I have not even had that so my purpose in this thread is to try and understand what I am doing wrong. Do you not think that four ceremonies over the course of 10 days while on the diet is enough for any noticable benefit?
During the sharing following the sessions the other retreat participants claimed they had these fantastic experiences and felt "better". I asked myself "am I attending a different retreat than these people?"
I'm just frustrated.
-CB
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 10:25 AMNone of what you've described is uncommon or unusual. My strongest Ayahuasca experiences have been the most terrifying times of my life, and I can't even imagine anything more so, but some people don't find it terrifying at all and never have. Also most of my experiences are more mental or emotional than visionary. In many traditions, visions are considered to be of little, if any, importance, and often a distraction.
I believe everyone is "wired" to receive some benefits from this medicine, but it may not always be what the doctor ordered. You may want to do some other work beforehand, or try a different recipe (more vine and less leaf?), or work with a dilute, purgative tea for some time.
An alternative to paying $3000 to go to the jungle for 3 ceremonies would be to develop a relationship with the tea closer to home, but there are legal issues to be taken into account.
The variety of modalities of Ayahuasca healing is as wide as that of modalities of healing in general.
As for whether you need a heroic dose, I would say follow your instinct. I used to believe in the power of shock and "no pain no gain", not anymore. These days I lean more towards gentle work, patience and integration than shock therapy. -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 1:35 PMYou could think about your history with it too. You went back more than once, even when you said “never more”. Perhaps this is the way you choose to meet the brew. And we also never receive, or see, more than we can handle. It has also to do with the brew, how it was done and with whom you drank it. And be careful with the idea of massive doses unless a really experienced guide says you can.
The other thing is that the brew doesn’t get you high. Not saying that you wanted that, as you pointed yourself. But it is good to remember that to have a vision has nothing to do with just the act of drinking it.
I remember of an acquaintance of mine who arrived in Rio and asked if I could take him to a ceremony nearby. I knew the people and I accepted. During the interval he came by, we chatted and he worked on my shoulders (he’s a masseuse). And I had one of the most beautiful visions I ever had. And it was kind of an extension of what I was seeing during the first part of the ceremony. We broke apart and after a while I choose a place to sit alone and rest for the second part of the ceremony. After a few minutes the same vision returned, beautiful, lighting up the whole tree in front of me. Immersed in bliss I looked around and for my surprise this friend of mine was behind my back, a few yards away.
I knew that before, that visions come by a reason, but it is always nice to live a living proof that the brew is alive, the energy in this universe is alive, the visions are alive and the brew is not just a “cosmic pill” that we take to see things.
In my opinion, visions are part of your relations, your personal energy in a given day, the brew and so on. And what Embrace said about dieting and etc. is very important. It is all part of taking care of our energies.
Peace,
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 3:06 PMGood responses here.
I'd add that intention is very pivotal and important in ceremony. If your true inner intent is something of a demand to "heal me right now", you may find the Spirit saying, "Not so fast. You have work to do." That work may be hard to endure and seem dark and unproductive on the outside. It may take several or many ceremonies to "break through" into something you can later point to as a meaningful result.
If your inner intent is "I'm scared to death of this", then you might just pass out! The brew is very sensitive to our needs, our formal stated intents, and our visceral or inner intents.
My first ceremony, like for many others, was very hard. I wanted to see/experience the beautiful visions so bad that I essentially demanded it in my formal intentions before drinking. However, I was not presented with visions in the way I wanted - told I didn't need to see that. The work that came next was hard, but in later ceremonies, visions did come and meetings with other beings.
Just because I broke through in three ceremonies means nothing in relation to your needs. It may take more for you. Everyone is different and your experiences certainly won't match what Kira's or mine were. You may need a kind of healing that takes a certain level of work that only Mother Ayahuasca knows how much.
Impatience seems to be part of the problem here. Impatience mixed with Fear. My ego impatience hindered me until I suddenly realized that it was the problem. When I relaxed my "control" and gave my love and my heart to the vine, then She responded and I learned.
BTW, I worked with SpiritQuest, too. It is a good place.
Blessings! -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 3:37 PMCowbot:
Well, congratulations on starting on this path. It's obviously taken a great deal of motivation and courage for you to come to the medicine, and that in itself is huge. Right there I would say is your first tangible benefits in all this: before you ever drank the plant she encouraged you to face a fear and overcome it. Nice work!
Then you drank, again, and again, and again. Kept on overcoming fear. That's huge!
Each time you drank your fears were made present to you, once you even passed out from the fear. So what is the medicine showing you that you fear? Don't answer here, just think about it. Why do you fear those specific things? What do those images represent to you?
I find that every fear is also related to a desire in our hearts. What do you desire most in life, more than anything else? How do your fears interfere with achieving that desire?
This question may seem totally irrelevant to you, but what was your birth like? Have you ever asked your mother? If you can ask her to tell you all about it.......
I feel like the plant is doing great work in you. Clearly from your posts, fear is the obstacle that is standing in your way of happiness. And already you have overcome your fear greatly in taking the medicine so many times. So now go the next step: don't shy from those fears. Dive deep into them. Trust that the only way out is through. Dive deep, deep, deep, deep into your fears during your next ceremony. See what they have to teach you.
If you need recommendations on some other possibilities of where you could go to dieta (which I think is a very clear and precise recommendation from embrace - dieta for two weeks if you can) feel free to send me a pm and I'll write you back.
As for fear:
The Litany Against Fear by the Bene Geserit
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain. -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 3:40 PMAnd another thing I wanted to say is that you should forget about an instant fix. Not because it can't happen (it doesn't in most cases, what the hell is being fixed anyways?) but because everyone's process is different. You may find yourself pursuing healing for years, and one day wake up and find yourself deep in a spiritual path full of beauty and calm......the path is the thing, not the goal......fuck, now I'm getting all Taoisty.....
Later!
:) -
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Unsu...
Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 10:09 PMabout dosage and "feeling nothing" the first few times :
sometimes its not about how MUCH you take or how much you spend being equal to what you "get out" of the "exerience", but how much you let go of your expectations, stand back and let the plant do her work.
either there is something inside you that is resistant to the change that the plant can help you undergo in which case id suggest making the concious intent to let it go,
or perhaps the issue you are working on is healed best very, very slowly in which case you just need to be patient, keep drinking the medicine and healing will surely occur. but on the medicine's time and on her terms.
you can do it.
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Unsu...
Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 10:11 PMlike my teacher says,
"poco a poco". -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 10:15 PMsometimes its not about how MUCH you take or how much you spend being equal to what you "get out" of the "exerience", but how much you let go of your expectations, stand back and let the plant do her work.
Yes! Letting go, the last true frontier ...
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Unsu...
Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 8:16 PMand i apologise if my previous post kindof looked like i was plugging myself.
i may have been pushing the boundary.
butin any case, my offer still stands.
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 10:36 PMhmm. sounds like you're pretty frustrated, cowbot.
so...i've had some pretty palpable benefits from spending time with the medicine (depression and social anxiety-wise)...and one ceremony was....really full of love and quite opening. on the other hand i definitely have had a lot of frustration with not having the "big breakthrough experience!" at other times...especially during the sharing circles...awful/useful reminders of my own tendencies toward judgment of my experience and the pain that comes with comparison. perhaps you might have those thinking habits too...worth noticing them and inquiring about what purpose they serve in your life...that's what has been helpful for me anyways (could check out byron katie maybe). as far as the one particularly powerful experience i had...i don't think i could ever have allowed it to happen without laying some groundwork doing other kinds of work...especially meditation and satsang...but also learning to tell my truth and learning how to cry (usually involving telling my truth to folks that can listen without judgment).
otherwise...i have had no visions like in the stories in articles and books. my experiences have been much more physical (paying attention to the sensations in my body has been very helpful indeed...like vipassana meditation) and emotional...quite subtle...sometimes sleepy...sometimes extended periods of crying...or that uncomfortable sense of realizing that i'm waiting for my big experience to start....and it never does. so...weird. but in the end i feel clearer and lighter in the morning. not sure what to make of it all. and honestly, i'm on the fence about pursuing this path too. but my story that i made up about my frustration experiences...hmmm...i feel like the medicine magnified some little aspects of my thinking that really gets me stuck....in all sorts of aspects of life..but in ceremony...that stuckness/frustation is just bigger and more palpable somehow. like...hmmm here i am judging my experience and myself and i feel like shit....for the whole ceremony! what a waste of time and money! but...then...perhaps it draws my attention to how maybe i am doing that ALL the time. oh dear. now that's something to process. whoa. and maybe i can throw up some of that habit into a bucket. hmm. maybe i did. anyways...don't know if this stuff is making sense. and had i not had one really profound experience of love the second time i drank, i might not be so willing to look at what the medicine has taught me during the murkier times...and i might not trust her so much. it's tricky.
i should note, however, i'm not so experienced as many others in this tribe and have never travelled to peru to drink in many ceremonies in a row...just various sets of two nights in a row...with not particularly big doses...preceded by dieta.
i'd say...it kinda sounds like you're still pursuing the ayahuasca path so maybe you can stop feeling frustrated about having put so much effort and money into it without any clear benefit. hmm. maybe feel what it's like to be really fucking frustrated right now...for a while...like in your body more than in your thinking about it (if that makes any sense to you...or not of course...)... and then after that has a chance to pass through....it will become clearer what it makes sense for you to do. no need to get attached to this path...and certainly not out of obligation to a should you might have about money or time or being different than you are. no siree. experiment...!
oops. kind of went on a bit because it struck my own uncertainty chord. i hope something was useful in here somewhere...good luck...!
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 1:12 AMAbove all i agree with Catie that "it's tricky."
Tricky seems to sum up quite nicely the path of aya for me as well. Perhaps I was lucky in that the first time I ever tried DMT I had the most intense feeling of returning home - back to my mother, the mother of all mothers, cradled by the warm arms of the most loving bosom - the most loving bosom of the universe. The second time it was quite tricky. And that is the state of mind I brought into my first aya ceremony; the mother of all ages waiting with open arms, but it may get a little tricky. My first experience with aya was the most generous gift I could ever hope for from the loving mother with extremely faint tricky aspects.
I have found that the balance between surrender/trust and fear to be instrumental in my visual experience. The more I fear, or the more I am in my head about this or that, shoulds or shouldn'ts, the more I am guided away from the keyhole of the visual path. And for me the visual path is truly a keyhole. A keyhole in the song, the icaros. A certain wavering sound or tone that seems odd and interesting. I focus my attention on that strange sound and it creates an opportunity, an invitation, to sliver through the song, a keyhole, into another realm where my body becomes a fractal and the songs become a stream of designs flowing through me. There is always a little test of fear at the entrance and I've come to expect it now. The keyhole is a place of trust and friendship with the medicine. A place where I lay myself down, still scared, to the wonderment, the freight, the experience that the medicine has to teach me. Sometimes the realization is that what I fear the most is actually myself. If I'm too nervous or scared at the entrance then I'm denied and I sometimes loose the visual experience. Its not always easy to say yes as the visual experience can be extremely frightening and once through the keyhole I often find layer upon layer of trial. Each song seems to have its own spirit which at first seem menacing. If I am able to relax and surrender than I find that the song is really my friend, here to do loving work on me. This happens cyclically, over and over, until I either end up in a waded ball of freight or completely unraveled with love.
Once in a while I simply put the entire cycle behind me, having a strong connection to the shaman and everyone else in the circle who is on board. We all become a beacons of light and we follow the shaman on a path, weaving in and out of teachings, songs, ideas, sometimes being snagged by my own curiosity. Feeling silly when I realize the group is waiting for me as I poke around the shrubbery of my being. And finding again the song when I feel scared or lost.
And sometimes I feel like I have no control whatsoever. As though I'm speeding down the highway at 150mph and I look over and there is nobody in the drivers seat, fighting for any semblance of stability, sanity or control.
I've had extremely illuminating experiences and extremely terrifying experiences. For some reason I fell naturally into a very visual experience and only rarely have I not found, or perhaps, lacked the trust for the more visual aspects. What I have learned for me is that this path is not what I think it is, what I expect it to be, or what I necessarily want. But it can be what I need.
If you find it does not serve you then perhaps its best to find another path as there are many.
If you find that something inside you is still drawn to this path then then leave your expectations behind and dance with the medicine in a space of wonderment. Don't necessarily spend your life savings or all your time or all your available energy unless you are totally 100% sure that this is your path. More likely, move slowly and cautiously as you would approaching something which is Loving and Tricky. But once you have made the choice to drink, completely surrender and open your being to the possibility of love and courage. You will most likely benefit from a full helping of both.
And Good Luck,
David -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 6:46 PMBrian, Dzikus, Rodrigo, Pluma, Jay, Rebecca-rose, Embrace, Catie, David,
I just wanted to express my gratitude. Thank you all very much for the advice. It is reassuring to get this advice. I have renewed hope for my upcoming trip.
Truly grateful,
-CB -
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Unsu...
Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 6:58 PMthe majority of my sesion with aya have been horrible... i cannot say i have gotten much other then from a few ceremonies. Drinking it is not for me personally. But there are other ways fo working with this medicine that to me are more effective and rewarding... as well as very very innovative and new...
I was told a long time ago that working with the vine was going to be my path... but what i didnt know was that working with the vine would be something totally different then how its done traditionally, and totally new...
my hats off to Australia...
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 6:58 PMKeep on keepin' on CB, you're walking a good path!
:)
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 7:05 PM>Brian, Dzikus, Rodrigo, Pluma, Jay, Rebecca-rose, Embrace, Catie, David,
>I just wanted to express my gratitude
Ditto. I am a newcomer to this tribe (although less so of its topic) and I just want to say thanks for sharing. It is already evident that there some real wisdom here.
Warm Regards,
Ryan
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 8:05 PMCowbot,
I wish you all the best for fulfillment and optimum health! Safe travels! -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 9:10 PMYes, much light and joy in your travels Cowbot. Glad you sorted something out.
Peace,
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 9:26 AMHi Jay,
Really good advice. Thanks!
You said "Each time you drank your fears were made present to you, once you even passed out from the fear. So what is the medicine showing you that you fear? Don't answer here, just think about it. Why do you fear those specific things? What do those images represent to you?"
WOW, I really did some soul searching here and what I am afraid of is losing control (trusting?...Maybe!) I am scared that I will have an uncontrollably bad experience. The fact that I used the word "control" to describe my fears speaks volumes to me.
Thank you (AND EVERYONE ELSE!!!) for the great advice. I can see where the blockage is coming from now. I just have to work on "letting go" (easier said than done!... for me anyway!).
Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge. I will be back in Brazil in 2 weeks. This should help!!!
-CB
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Unsu...
Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 8:14 PMhey LLB,
what you brought up really intrigues me.
care to share what these "innovative and new" ways of working with the medicine are that don't involve drinking?
i've been experimenting with making an essence of the brew, like a flower essence, for this specific purpose. because for some reason or another, you aren't planning on drinking a cup, but still want to do your work and heal and connect with the plant. works well with the people i've given it to. (i can ship anyone a bottle or two of you want!!)
but id love to hear about other forms of this idea.. -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 10:32 PMthat's sounds cool rebecca. how did you make it? would be good to take before bed.
did this idea come from working with the medicine
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Unsu...
Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Fri, August 7, 2009 - 7:00 AMyah it's great before bedtime. or before meditation/napping.
if i told you how i made it, I'd have to kill you, lol.
but you're welcome to a bottle.
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Unsu...
Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Fri, August 7, 2009 - 10:56 AMrebe... I will Pm yah...
I like you have me some secret methods. -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Fri, August 7, 2009 - 9:29 PMI don't think your experiences are out of the ordinary, considering that this is a very strange chemical that you are ingesting.
I know lots of people that do not get visions, and odly enough. I no longer get visions anymore. Now, when I used to smoke pot before I learned meditation, I would get visions everytime. I learned that the vision states were a lower state of consciousness than full acceptance to the present moment. The last time I had dmt, my focus was on the feeling of the process of life more than mind stuff. It was terrifying right before I had surrendered, but once I "passed over to the other shore", it was great. I felt amazing the next day.
These plants are remarkable, but you can not take them everyday. A meditation ritual will be more helpful for depression. Even then, it may take a good while before the effects of meditaiton will be noticable.
Its cool man, your doing fine. The fact that you are on this board, and on this journey reflects a state of awareness that puts you in the low percentage of people on this planet that are learning how to live. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Sat, August 8, 2009 - 11:03 AMi remember going to big ceremonies with lots of people paying lots of money where only a couple of people felt anything but sick... those days crack me up... lots of people feeling jipped... and taken... or foolish for just getting sick and nothing more in their eyes...
I have heard it said that the vine has to make a place for it to sit within you to talk and help and heal, and that can take some time. -
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Unsu...
Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Mon, August 10, 2009 - 9:07 AM....and we can help the vine "make a place" by concentrating on intentions, cleansing our bodies, and generally communicating with the plant beforehand.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Mon, August 10, 2009 - 9:05 AM
I keep hearing some idea about visions not being important, and while it may not be essential to having an enlightening experience, it's a rich source of information. It can facilitate a whole realm of understanding and creates possibilities for interacting in simple and direct relationships. It's not that those relationships aren't possible without vision, just that they are less direct.
Visions may not be the point, but are one of the rich ways to receive and orient to the realm your working in. No offense intended, but not being able to see today, as you go about your day, would significantly alter your experience. Will you be senseless? No of course not, and the other sensory organs are themselves rich and capable sources of information, but would you casually discard vision because some Buddhist guy said it's a distraction, or because someone who doesn't have much of it says it's not important.
Maybe operate for just 15 minutes today without it and then compare your experience to your ability to interact when it's present. It seems like a silly thing to say, because who would casually discard it's value in their life, but it seems to be casually discarded in some conversation of shamanism as if it's a silly fixation of the less advanced practitioner, and I find that to be kind of silly. :) -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Mon, August 10, 2009 - 6:57 PMCG, I agree on the value of visions... but they are a double-edged sword, and so many of them come from the ego (not trying to start another discussion here)... that sometimes I think the nonvisual people who just experience raw emotion and never go on the ego-tripping goose chases are to be the ones envied (in a non-envious good way, of course).
At this point for me, it is all about having it in the body. Anyone who is drinking is doing the work, regardless of the experience. I'd rather hear someone talk about a good purge than a strong vision any day. And so a big hat tip to you, CB!
While you are looking at us for inspiration to continue on the path... you are providing inspiration through the persistence and courage of your actions. Funny how that works. I'm going to accept your gentle reminder you have offered to remain diligent in seeking Spirit. Many thanks. -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Mon, August 10, 2009 - 10:08 PMCheers Elfin,
I can totally honor all the various levels of experience involved, the emotional, mental, physical, visual, etc..
I think it's sometimes how the experiences are relayed and spoken about, the meaning that's attached to them, that can be considered "ego-tripping goose chases". It can happen with any of them and isn't just the visions that can suffer that kind of treatment. It may be that some people have attached that energy to a description of a visionary experience more often than an experience of purging when you're hearing that goose chasing going on.
I've certainly heard a lot of importance and significance and grandeur expressed in someones telling of what they saw, but I've also been witness to visions of my own that were highly informative and transforming for me even though they were showing me something horrendous about my own thinking or behavior. They were not flattering in any way, but were honestly valuable none the less. Sometimes people only share what they think will make them look good, powerful or grand, but that happens all the time outside of medicine work as well. My hope is that there's a way to share both the experiences of the glop we get caught in and become aware of, as well as those moments when we recognize something of our beauty and even majesty. Maybe if the experience of the listener is that both are being shared equally would make it more palatable when they hear about the amazing grace.
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Thu, August 13, 2009 - 10:45 AMThanks Elfin! and all who have taken the time to share.
I am off to Brazil tomorrow for 5 ceremonies over 11 days. I will take the advice given and I will apply it. Thanks to everyone for the encouragement!!
I will give updates as soon as I return.
-CB -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Thu, August 13, 2009 - 11:10 AMBest of luck Cowbot, Bon traballho...
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Mon, August 10, 2009 - 10:04 PMWell said CG. -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Tue, August 11, 2009 - 10:21 PMYep!
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Thu, August 13, 2009 - 12:28 AMNo offense taken. I find it fascinating that we have such a diverse group of view points to observe nature.
I don't have much time to spend online; so I was in a rush posting a response. The purpose of my post was to share my experience with the person who started the thread, not start a debate on what is important and what is not.
Considering your response, I don't follow any of the beliefs that your counterpoint mentioned (just so you know). Although I do not feel that visions are important for my personal growth, I would not just write them off as silly antics or distractions, considering that they reflect my state of mind. They are hallucinations, and its a personal choice on how to approach them, or rather the experience that can lead to hallucinations.
(With respect to your values), growth, understanding and healing are not dependant on visions, information, realms, or relationships with otherworldly beings. These aspects of the psychedelic experience are common, but are not a reference point as to whether the medicine worked.
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Thu, August 13, 2009 - 9:49 AMIt's cool Ralph,
We all have these different perspectives to share and this is an open forum for doing that. We don't have to debate as long as we remember we may not be in possession of the "facts" or "truth", but just our version of what's going on. Inside of that opening it's not a debate, but just a chance to hear about all these interesting ways of seeing things.
Einstein called regular vision an optical delusion, and if you want to call visions hallucinations your welcome to it. I would say that we give the world all the meaning it has for us, and so I tend to live in a wonderful story without much limitation where my imagination is at play. -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Thu, August 13, 2009 - 5:33 PMWell, perhaps cowbot would benefit from seeing the different effects of psyhedelics. I agree that there is a distinction to be made between universal and conventional truths. For instance, who knows what would happen to someone that took a high dose of any tryptamine. Depends on your tendancy to resist. Depends on your state of mind going into it. I have had mixed experiences with heroic doses. It seemed to be effective for triggering an awakening, but heroic doses after that would not accelerate awakening in my experience. I think that integration would be more important than dose.
Cowbot, if you do want to take a heroic dose, well, I don't know what to say. It's not enough to say that you will feel like you are dying, because the element that would remember that you really won't die will not stick around for that experience, so regardless, it can be terrifying and painful, and I have never got used to it. Everytime I do something like that, it feels like I really am dying, and I just can't say to myself, "oh it's just ego death" because it's the ego that attempts to assert some form of asurance. ALso, in my experience, it may be terrifying and painful at first, but I felt great once I accepted the disolution of myself. A heroic dose doesn't take a hero to take it....but to endure it, I would call anyone a hero! -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Thu, August 13, 2009 - 6:15 PM"A heroic dose doesn't take a hero to take it....but to endure it, I would call anyone a hero! "
once you've taken your dose, have you any further choice in the matter? if not, then *taking* a heroic dose is heroic.
...except when it's accidental...then the heroism derives from enduring.
although, come to think of it, integrating might be the most heroic feat of all. in my humble experience that's the hardest part. so far. -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Fri, August 14, 2009 - 4:01 AM> if not, then *taking* a heroic dose is heroic.
Except for the first time. -
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Re: I need so advice from those experienced in AYA
Fri, August 14, 2009 - 12:45 PMFor me dosage is not especially linear in ayahuasca ceremonies. Setting aside the different concentrations that the brews have, I have found that my experience is not necessarily a result of how full the cup is. Yes, there is usually some correspondence it cant be counted on and what seems to be a small dose often sneaks up and surprises me.
I have found that there seems to be is a threshold where once I drink enough to cross through the door, drinking any more extends the length of the experience more than increasing the intensity of my journey.
Just my experience though.
D
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