Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

topic posted Wed, August 27, 2008 - 9:48 AM by 
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To start, and to be perfectly clear, I am not pointing fingers at any one here. Some of the previous discussions both here and in other boards got me thinking about cults. Specifically, what is the danger/possibility of the formation/existence of "ayahuasca cults". I did a bit of googleing, and found a rather interesting list of characteristics of cult like groups and cult behavior. I want to offer this for discussion as with any thing of great power, there is the possibility of great abuse, which I feel that as a community of people on this rather odd path, we need to be cognizant of in order to make sure we don't make the mistakes of so many previous paths.

Certainly, no one of these items will point to cult-like behavior. Nor will the lack thereof mean that it's not a cult. But we do travel in a world of leaders (shamans) who are often charismatic, powerful, persuasive, and who maintain their own belief systems which they hold to be true. I have personally seen hero-worshiping behavior and adulation directed towards some of them.

As you read this list, you will see many similarities to what goes on in various centers, and in face has been a part of the curanderismo tradition in the Amazon. I want to state clearly that this does not create a cult - but it may create the danger of a cult forming. It might also be of value to consider the various syncretic traditions as well, for all of them even more closely follow much in the list below. Does this make them cults? Are some of the shamans cult leaders? What can keep those of us who are sincere about this path from falling or slowly sliding into being cult followers - even in the absence of a defined cult?

Here's a list of behaviors that researchers have associated with cults:
‪1. The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

‪2. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

‪3. Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

‪4. The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

‪5. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

‪6. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

‪7. The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

‪8. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

‪9. The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

‪10. Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

11.‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

12.‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.

‪13. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

14.‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

‪15. The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
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    Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

    Wed, August 27, 2008 - 3:27 PM
    hmmm.. it is unknown to me if there is a "danger" of this ... as i have never been to Peru... or the Native Aya regions. ... however ... i do notice somewhat idolatrous attitudes towards certain shamans, curanderos and indoctrinization of the teachings as in infallible truth to be abided to by all... however my feeling is that this is an old structure that we are outgrowing as people... my feeling is that at this point in the evolutionary development of humanity, many are almost desperately seeking elders, seeking wayshowers, starving for truths long obscured by the follies of patriarchy and the ideas of weight, measure, and separateness. ..in the wake of the powerful realization that there is more than meets the eye... it is disconcerting to many to feel the once solid foundations crumbling from decay beneath their feet.. and no doubt we all wonder from time to time if we are ready for flight.... however i feel we are ready for flight ... and i hold in my prayer the future where we begin to realize the unique medicine inherent in our conception... as well as the unity and validity of the wisdoms held by our elders and Pachamama.

    I personally was highly sought out by a "cult" leader once... and i was quite fascinated by his power over his disciples... and how he would exercise his will through their energy... however over a due course of time i saw several of the once disciples leave to pursue broader horizons, much to my amazement .. as i was feeling inclined to make a rescue maneuver... and from this encounter with the man of power ... and their ability to imbibe needed qualities, and then their courage to depart from the group after self realization and actualization ... was almost like an immunity they needed ... almost like a booster shot.

    so ... perhaps it is par for the course... to come into our own power ... we must learn to assert ourselves over archaic dogma.


    *
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      Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

      Wed, August 27, 2008 - 3:27 PM
      .02
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        Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

        Wed, August 27, 2008 - 4:42 PM
        "What can keep those of us who are sincere about this path from falling or slowly sliding into being cult followers - even in the absence of a defined cult?"

        Madrecita?

        .... open heart?

        .... .... the desire for truth, liberty and justice for all ... er... no wait ... thats a cult phraseology. :)-
        • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

          Wed, August 27, 2008 - 9:57 PM
          I, personally, don't use ayahuasca...tooo many bugs...
          • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

            Thu, August 28, 2008 - 1:39 AM
            " I, personally, don't use ayahuasca...tooo many bugs... "


            What does that mean to you?
            • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

              Thu, August 28, 2008 - 5:06 AM
              Don't feed the troll....might get your fingers snipped off.....
              • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

                Thu, August 28, 2008 - 6:11 AM
                Agreed. This person contributes nothing but off topic rants and pure nonsense.

                Giving them attention may not be the best idea.

                Veg
                • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

                  Thu, August 28, 2008 - 8:10 PM
                  i am so incredibly grateful for this post.

                  When I was born, the spiritual group that my parents were a part of was considered a cult to many in the outside community. my parents didn't realise how much of their personal freedom they had given up until they left the group when i was approximately 10 years old.

                  my parents really had issues with that group for long after they left, and their main problem was how they were given "directions" by the leader, to sell their possessions, to build bomb shelters, to stock up on weapons, etc, in preparation for the "end of the world" which was supposed to happen in 1989. they were quite disappointed to find that the leader's "prophecy" was false when there indeed was not nuclear warfare at that time. i remember my parents being happy to have regained their personal and spiritual freedom after leaving.

                  i am grateful for this upbrining, because as a child i experienced none of the politics or dogma, simply the spirits who my parents introduced me to. it has genuinely helped me with my journey. but it was very hard for my parents and i think they still regret their deep involvement in the group.

                  another fact that I learned in my personal research:

                  --Cults tend to try and "recruit" people between the ages of 18 and 30. It is said that people in this age group are spiritually exploring and vulnerable and tend to be more easily persuaded. so if you are in this age group and spiritually wide-open (which, for your sake, I hope you are), be very weary of spiritual groups that demonstrate any of the "symptoms" that richard mentioned.

                  i personally believe that ayahuasca could be easily used for this purpose because she makes us so vulnerable. may this thread be a warning to those exploring spiritual groups, but don't let it stop us from experiencing the medicine with people with whom we feel safe and empowered do do as we choose!



                  namaste
  • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

    Thu, August 28, 2008 - 8:38 PM
    I'll get hate mail for this I know but most "religions" I know fit these criteria nicely. being raised a devout Irish Catholic I can provide some examples.

    Here's a list of behaviors that researchers have associated with cults:
    ‪1. The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

    Jesus? The Pope (is infalable right??) The Bible??


    ‪2. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

    Anyone else been put through 12 years of parochial school? I was locked in a closet, had paper weights thown at me, was told I was a no-good-sinner-going-to-burn-in-hell

    ‪3. Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

    Chanting? check. repetative prayers? check. Repetitions of creeds? check.

    ‪4. The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

    I was not allowed to associate with "friends" outside of the church. I was made to dress with a high neckline and modest skirts or pants always covering the knees. typical American teenage fashion was concidered "inappropriate", "provocative" and even "slutty"

    ‪5. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

    "Jesus is the Lord, Savior and Messiah, if you do not believe you-are-not-saved-you're-going-to-burn-in-hell-for-all-eternity. We are the chosen, we are the saved" etc. etc.

    ‪6. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

    This fits in with #5

    ‪7. The leader is not accountable to any authorities

    {{(unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations)}}REALLY??
    Most Religions/Cults have some kind of inner hierarchical structure.


    ‪8. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

    Selling Indulgences, The Inquisition, Priests molesting little boys (and could I mention girls too, but that doesn't get as much press)

    ‪9. The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

    Don't even get me started on Catholic guilt. For those of you unfamiliar with the concept a few examples of teachings: your body is inherently evil, sex is a sin-unless you intend to produce children, masturbation kills kittens, you're not even born sin-less, because of origional sin, so if your an un-baptised baby, and you unfortunatly meet an untimely demise you don't even go to heaven you end up in Limbo (yes its a Catholic term) which supposively is a happy place but not near to or with God/Jesus/the saints. ((Yes this one was so outrageous it was taken off the books after Vatican II convention to"modernize" the Church))

    ‪10. Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

    Assuming you're a new recruit, but many cult/religions are very family oriented and use the family structure to further ingrain their doctorine.

    11.‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

    Do you know a Church thats not into converting people??

    12.‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.

    Did I mention the Catholic Church is STILL one of the richest organizations in the world??

    ‪13. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

    Sunday School, parochial school, Church every holiday, Church summer camp, prayer every night at bedtime, before every meal.

    14.‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

    A rehashing of #4

    ‪15. The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

    OH AND DID I MENTION, IF YOUR DON'T BELIEVE LIKE THIS YOUR NOT SAVED AND YOU'RE GOING TO HELL

    So there you have it folks. Quit looking for outside answers and think for yourself!
    • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

      Thu, August 28, 2008 - 9:04 PM
      Indeed. I personally think most if not all religions are simple tools of manipulation. Realization is different.
      • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

        Thu, August 28, 2008 - 10:52 PM
        The rules you mentioned can be applied to a lot of things.
        Fraternities and sororities share a lot of the things you mentioned.
        But I do think that when groups get political or religious there is a danger.
        People who connect through a shared ideology can be beautiful, but also dangerous.
        A group that wants to change the world to there own perception of an ultimate truth. When they get armed things can go very wrong.
        There will allways be friction, humans are spiritual beings but come from different places.
        Different parts of the planet have different spirits roaming around, diffrent influences forming souls..
        People are also herd-creatures who are succeptable for things that are brought like truth when in fact they are lies, it is a way to deal with insecurities, to not have to worry about things yourself.
        Far more interesting is the lonely terrorist. Is he a cult in himself?
        The one that stands on a tower with a gun.
        Or plans to blow up a building.
        I guess to ask... when does a cult become dangerous.?
        I personally think. When an ideology is the main focus of the group and violence is accepted.
        Offcourse this is a bit of an unpolished statement, sandpaper anyone..?
    • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

      Fri, August 29, 2008 - 4:51 AM
      Thanks for pointing that out Phi, I think it's a very important detail that you mention. I took a class in college on cults, only the teacher, a very smart sociologist called the class alternative religions. Why? Well, as he explained to us on day one, really the only difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of adherents and the degree of public acceptance. The tenants of what to believe or not to believe are basically the same guidelines for a religion and a cult.

      Rebecca - that was those guys down by Yellowstone eh? What was it, the Church Universal Triumphant or something like that? That's really interesting, thank you for sharing that with us.

      As for Aya cults, I imagine the potential is there, but I think any degree of control you tried to exert over a group via aya would only be partially successful. In my experience la madrecita likes to open minds, and granted, if you're in a vulnerable place to begin with it might be easy to form a cult like association. But eventually, IMO, those barriers too would dissolve.

      So far I don't think I've encountered cultish aya behavior, or at least, I haven't seen enough evidence to qualify a certain group in that manner. But who knows, I'm sure they're out there.

      Isn't the Daime in a sense sort of more like an organized religion than the traditional aya practices? I'm not saying it as a criticism, merely inquiring.....
  • D
    D
    offline 89

    Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

    Fri, August 29, 2008 - 6:51 AM
    I do not believe that there will ever be - could ever be - a "cult of Aya" - not if the cult was actually using Aya since She would not permit such a thing. There could always be a cult revolving around some human using Aya, though.
    • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

      Fri, August 29, 2008 - 8:34 PM
      "Wow. Summit Lighthouse? "

      Yes. I've blogged about it a bit.
      • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

        Fri, August 29, 2008 - 8:38 PM
        //people.tribe.net/rebeccarose/blog/a91ca6fc-5f5b-4424-b6c1-45b07159467f
        • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

          Fri, August 29, 2008 - 8:44 PM
          yes, Jav, that's the one, Church Universal and Triumphant. My parents moved from Caifornia to Montana when I was little to be closer to the church. I still know a few people who are involved with the Church and I respect them as individuals greatly. sometimes, when I visit montana, I do "decrees" with them for old times sake.

          Like I said, I am quite grateful to have been born into this kind of atmosphere. I had my first very spiritual experience when I was just about 4 years old, and i beleive that this is because my parents were incerdibly supportive of my connection to the spirit world.

          i think that since Guru Ma got Alzheimers the church has been dwindling and there is less of a "cult" label in the media anyway.

          but back to ayahuasca....
          • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

            Fri, August 29, 2008 - 8:48 PM
            "Isn't the Daime in a sense sort of more like an organized religion than the traditional aya practices?"


            yes, jav, it is, but I understand that Daime does not encourage people to become members or to even attend a work unless they feel the desire within themselves to do so. there are no obligations as far as one's level of involvement goes.

            • Re: Is there a danger of Ayahuasca cultism?

              Sat, August 30, 2008 - 10:27 AM
              "We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty towards the Party. There will be no love, except the love of Big Brother." -1984


              People not getting together scares me more than the occasional poisoned kool-aid drinking, arms storing 'cults' that are so well exploited on the media for their fear inducing effect.

              Imperialists operate on divide and conquer principals, it is in the best interest of the status quo to make damn sure that things like group cohesion and any leadership is found to be emotionally suspicious.

              Traditional Ayahuasca practices are organized, under who knows how many thousands of years of evolution, it's just not organized in the modern sense of corporate-religion that we are so used to in our culture.

              Basically (to me), groups are like people, to be really simple, there are good ones and bad ones, the psychopathic and the sane, those prone to violence and pacifist, entities of change and blockages of stagnation. Of course it's always a mixed bag.

              Couldn't individual drinkers who aren't 'part of a group' be dangerous? A decent group offers a lot of scrutiny and mirroring. Ayahuasca originated in tribal community settings, is that an accident?

              The buzz word 'cult' and its emotions that it stimulates definitely need to be examined closely as well, as it can be dangerous in its self.


              "The birds sang, the proles sang. The Party did not sing."

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