use with harmful intent

topic posted Tue, April 22, 2008 - 9:15 AM by  rebecca~rose
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i am learning that the plant is not only a deep healer,

but in certain hands has been used for all kinds of harmful things to gain revenge, power, to manipulate and to even kill another human being.

im wondering how the plant came to be used for these purposes and how these styles of paractice with the plant have fit in with others' experiences, if at all.
posted by:
rebecca~rose
Peru
  • Re: use with harmful intent

    Tue, April 22, 2008 - 11:12 AM
    These are all very good questions.

    Healing seems like a given.

    But how does this relate with power? There is the power of healing. But there is also the power of harming or sorcery.

    I am not sure if if feel the plant is ethically motivated. I think it depends on our particular intention.

    Perhaps it intensifies the effects of our intentions. I my particular view, our intentions always have an effect on the world, yet aya may make these more obvious as well as more powerful.

    Just a thought.

    BTW,
    Steve (who is in this tribe) has some good blog posts on this subject.

    singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/20...tml

    singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/20...tml
    • Re: use with harmful intent

      Tue, April 22, 2008 - 11:28 AM
      he he he' all is reflection'

      If you can imagine it within your mind, it will come back by reflection'
      the mind the projector the universe psychi' the screen'
      Imagination reflected off of the universe psychi comes back as a physical reflection here and now'
      We are the living word, word moves to create reflection'
      Word is Power' to walk psychi through the universe mind'
      All at base is symbols' all is light geometry'
      We are the reflection of the universe' we reflect the universe as a whole through our psychic reflections'

      Awesome eh'

      Non of this is real' just made of light' in reflection'

      Just like a magic mirror' he he he'~

      Amazing'~

      Staff of light walking upon the land' reflecting mind'
      All is within the mind:)'~

      Bliss'~

      Motumbu'~
      One can work awesome magic on teacher plants'~
      • Re: use with harmful intent

        Wed, April 23, 2008 - 10:03 AM
        maybe the plant has intent to assist us with accelerating our karmic evolution, and if harming and hurting is in some way going to lead you full circle back to your awakening out of such ignorance, maybe she goes along with it. I can say from personal experience that my anger and hatred seeded the cycles which brought it back around to me and helped me earn my compassion for others I see behaving in the same ways I used to. I used to curse Creator for leaving me in darkness about the truth of love but now I see my suffering as an essential part of the alchemical process needed to poison me back to life.

        In my mind, the trick is to use the dark thoughts and images that come to ceremony as tools of learning in order to suffer without manifesting the thought into an action and starting a 3 dimensional karmic loop which could take years or lifetimes to sort out if manifested. Better to descend into that hell for a few hours of ceremony, come back knowing you would not like that Hell to become the waking reality of your days and alter the course of your thinking/acting.
        • brujeria and predetory shamanry

          Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:42 AM
          glad some one posted on this subject...
          i get tired of the new agey assumption that ayahausca is this amazing benevolent force, the voice of the earth mother and a kindly matron... if you were to actually look at the societal practices of amazonian people its been traditionally worked with to kill people as well as heal them... very very frequently working with in inter tribal warfare. amazonian shamanry has been called by some researchers as predatory shamanry.
          out of the tribal context and into the enculturated meztiso practices of curanderismo and vegetalismo the dynamics change a bit and we get distinctions of curanderos ( people who only heal) brujos people who harm others with the aid of ayahausca ( as well as many other plants and methods) and chamans who both heal and harm... to heal and to harm are both things that ayahausca teaches people, it leads me to view the plant madre as being a rather ambivilant being.. like most snakes : ) niether concerned whether you live or die but more concenred that the process of life, the movement of energy continues so that the whole forest is well... one less human in the jungle is not a bad idea at all...
          in the amazon things become biomass immediately! if somthing dies it very quickly is consumed by another organism and becomes life very quickly. life and death becomes a sort of blur... with little transition between one and the other... this is why i think the snake madre ayahuasca teaches about transformation and the transitions of life and death. killing and being killed in the jungle with the aid of ayahuasca was part of an ecological balance... brought out of the jungle and out of a tribal context things get more muddled and messy however less clear cut.
          people who are interested in shamanry often times project thier own cultural values upon the practice and forget that animsit relationships to life and death and the taking of life are a bit differant then what the babas teach in india and the channelers of santa fe teach us... its viewed froma palce of balance within an ecological system.
          • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

            Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:19 AM
            litt..., I agree there is a questionable tendency to anthropomorphize Aya, and ascribe all sorts of qualities to the tea that are actually more correctly expressions of each individual's experience. Obviously, there is some common ground....and because it is a very powerful experience, it's understandable that sincere people put it in a friendly context overall.

            Looked at a little more objectively, however, the universal forces at play cannot be adequately described in personal terms, or with human values. It's in our nature to impose these, because it helps us make sense of a Big Picture we are not equipped to fully comprehend. We have, as CG says, our stories - which are valid, creative expressions within their own sphere. But if you consider how much we don't know, how each life is but a slice of a much grander pie, then for every story we cling to, our view actually narrows reality down to a finite scale, a scale we feel we can manage.

            Reality is bigger than anything we think about it. And so is "Mama Aya."




            • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

              Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:34 AM
              true...

              i was thinking after my last post that the madre of ayahuasca is a snake and like a snake it adapts and responds to the temperature of the one who ingests it... cold blooded snake that she is...
          • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

            Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:38 AM
            Good and evil are human concepts. Nature doesn't know such notions.
            • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

              Thu, April 24, 2008 - 12:22 PM
              Exactly. That's not to say good and evil don't exist _for us_ because we do experience things that way. Our cognition is binary - some things seem nice and some things suck. We are wired for pleasure and pain, health and disease, life and death. We develop preferences based on the biology of survival.

              However, psychological survival is another kettle of fish. The survival of the "me" leads to all manner of assumptions and biases that have no basis in fact. It's these stories that may merit deconstructing, because they cause our brains to literally shut out conflicting information, information that does not match our preconceptions. And that can be a shame, when so much more in life is there to be encountered and integrated.

              When you develop a healthy skepticism for the psychological stories, you gain access to a lot more possibility. It's not about killing the ego, but seeing it as a simple function, a generated construct. It has it's purpose, but it's only in the absence of the viewer that the View comes clear.
              • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                Thu, April 24, 2008 - 12:27 PM
                Good is the name we give for things we are attracted to and hope for
                Evil is the name we give for things we disagree with and are afraid of.
                • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                  Thu, April 24, 2008 - 1:02 PM
                  "It has it's purpose, but it's only in the absence of the viewer that the View comes clear. "

                  good way of putting it.
                  i like the buddhist idea that suffering is caused by nothing more then a misperception...

                  brian...
                  1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
                  2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
                  3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
                  4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
                  5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.
                  n.
                  1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
                  2. That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
                  3. An evil force, power, or personification.
                  4. Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.


                  i like to think of evil as malicious intentions personally... however this as well as immorality doesnt bring into effect the cause of such things... i tend to think that its caused by sickness.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                    Thu, April 24, 2008 - 2:01 PM
                    little, i'm guessing this is a book definition of evil you found somewhere?

                    i especially like your # 2 definition:

                    evil efffects of a poor diet.

                    come to think of it, most people i know who tend to cause harm upon others also don't eat too well...

                    maybe committing evil upon others is also directly correlated to harm upon oneself (ie eating poorly)

                    hmm.
                    • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 2:22 PM
                      yeah it came from an online dictionary
                      "maybe committing evil upon others is also directly correlated to harm upon oneself (ie eating poorly) "

                      well depends on how you view self, the way i see self now is that there is only one self, or as the buddhists say one mind many bodies, and we all share this one self, one soul... this is what the spirit of the vine taught me one evening... so any harm directed to any one effects us all, for we are one... at least thats how i relate to the subject at hand... im sure others dont see it the same way i do.
                      at the same time any evil or mal intention dirrected to you from another is also coming from you because once again we are one... i like to think that one mind knows what its doing even though we have no idea... dont pay attention to the man behind the curtain folks lol...
                      so then we have evil being enacted by onesSelf to onesSelf.. playing out some mythic drama i figure for the over all benefit of the whole, which from this narrow perspective of being just a part of this one mind with ocular senses just sitting here int he PNW i cant even grasp nor imagine what that over all benefit is... but i do know that this one mind is a pretty nice person all in all wrathfull and benevolent, personal and ambivalent, and i trust it knows what its doing... it definitely already knows the outcome or potential outcomes lol... so the funny thing is where does evil play into this when the source of all evil is this one mind which is ultimately also the source of all loving kindness? at this point your ability to make value judgements based upon the narrow point of view of an I fades and you just have the universe in motion... lila, the dance of shiva and shakti ect...
                      : )
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 3:39 PM
                      "maybe committing evil upon others is also directly correlated to harm upon oneself (ie eating poorly)"

                      defiantly! people who kill do so because they feel they have been killed ... because they are wounded .. .and they are expressing their wound ... as life is an expressive act

                      mama aya ... is the snake, the vine ... (similarly to kundalini ..depending on what language you want to use ... for aya speaks in the language of intent! not the language of men) ...an amplification of our energy ... has no intent ... though clearly her own divine consciousness ... she seeks to clean ... through life and death ... because they are the same thing ... she is the vine .. life force ... moving upwards ... taking down old trees and huge parts of jungle through strangulation ... she will give you the medicine you ask for ... no good no bad ... no judgment ... just observation ... just action ... just reflection.

                      she is no saint, she is no sinner, she IS .. as we ARE ... when we cease to place judgment on this world of reflection.
                      • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                        Thu, April 24, 2008 - 4:57 PM
                        "people who kill do so because they feel they have been killed ... because they are wounded .. .and they are expressing their wound ... as life is an expressive act "


                        brilliant, stella..

                        this also reminds me of the , excuse the quote, ani difranco lyric

                        "every tool is a weapon if you hold it right.."

                        so in this way , ayahuasca, as the magnifying glass of our intentions , can be used for harm in a way to show us how extremely real and potent our intentions are.
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                          Thu, April 24, 2008 - 5:02 PM
                          exactamente!
                          • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                            Thu, April 24, 2008 - 5:19 PM
                            well put!
                            • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                              Thu, April 24, 2008 - 7:11 PM
                              i want to point out how accurate i feel this statement by little to be:

                              "out of the tribal context and into the enculturated meztiso practices of curanderismo and vegetalismo the dynamics change a bit and we get distinctions of curanderos ( people who only heal) brujos people who harm others with the aid of ayahausca ( as well as many other plants and methods) and chamans who both heal and harm... to heal and to harm are both things that ayahausca teaches people, it leads me to view the plant madre as being a rather ambivilant being.. like most snakes"

                              so when people are talking about the "dangers" of ayahuasca, what they might likely be talking about is the dangers of mistakening a brujo with a curandero. here's the kicker though, a brujo's never gonna come out and say "im a brujo, so you better go drink with jose over there, cus i know it's a curandero you really want..." that's why i feel so lucky to be building a community of those who also love the vine for her healing qualities, because we can direct eachother to curanderos who we trust...

                              i feel like the "danger" actually lies within the person who serves the stuff, and actually, little, madre CAN be a nurturing loving being that many call her, because, perhaps it is many people's intention to cultivate this energy. god knows we need that right now.
                              • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                Thu, April 24, 2008 - 9:02 PM
                                totally...
                                the dangers lay within you... as well as in the world your interacting with too though... people who set out in shamanic territories enter into dangerous waters any way... and when working with traditional peoples the differances in culture not to mention allusions we bring to the table of how animist cultures work and what shamanry is puts us into some really dangerous waters...
                                i ended up with brujeria put on me from working with a chaman for 6 years. he put hooks in me disempowering me and keeping me working with him even though i didnt want to any more, i was manipulated by him and i didnt even know it... this is pretty common and isnt looked down upon... love magic and many forms of manipulative magic are practiced by many curanderos very openly and isnt even considered brujeria by many, though there are good curanderos that do see it for what it is...
                                i had to get cleaned up and cured by a very good curendero and didnt even know i had brujeria put on me until i went to see him.
                                whats considered mal or ethicly wrong by some is not going to be seen ethicaly wrong by others as well... ethics are often times seen in the eye of the beholder... taking advantage of a rich gringo to help your family and community for instance may be considered in some peoples minds an ethical thing to do when your obviously being taken advantage of by the gringos who because of cultural differances dont even see they are taking advantage of you...
                                when i was in peru i think i only met one curandero i would have worked with... he was humble generous and kind and very gental, and he recognised the power in others... i didnt meet to many who where like that... you have to be carefull... even drinking alone...
                                • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                  Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:27 PM
                                  "i ended up with brujeria put on me from working with a chaman for 6 years. he put hooks in me disempowering me and keeping me working with him even though i didnt want to any more, i was manipulated by him and i didnt even know it..."

                                  yes, little, i've heard of this happening before.

                                  so, besides working with another curandero, how did you recover from this, little? were there any benefits to working with that chaman for such a long period of time?

                                  does it still affect you at all?

                                  im wondering how we can warn others of this type of thing...

                                  • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                    Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:41 PM
                                    "when i was in peru i think i only met one curandero i would have worked with... he was humble generous and kind and very gental, and he recognised the power in others."


                                    pardon all my questions, but would you mind sharing this curandero's name for those who might want to go to peru someday and work with someone like this?
                                    • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:50 PM
                                      i cant recall his name but he lives in pisac market.. works with sanpedro, and has a blue dot tatooed on his head... really nice guy... i didnt work with him so i dont know how good he is... but i got the sense of humility from him... just two huachumeros sitting together happy to have met another good guy. it was nice meeting him...
                                  • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                    Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:48 PM
                                    yes there where benifits, i leaned what not to do pimarily. i did learn alot along the way but the lessons i leanred where lessons from the plants and from spirit and from ceremony... alot of the work itself was goodbut as i mentioned misguided IMHO which intern tuaght me what not to do, what was my path and what wasnt.
                                    i recovered from this just fine there after, but having been in such a state for so long has put me at ends as far as being totally in my power as i once was, call it a scar if you will.
                                    its made me less focused on leading ceremonies as i once did, mostly because of the habits brought about during that time i developed...
                                    the good thing that came out of it was bioregional animism, which was my own focused way of resisting the brujeria and was the blessing that came from the curse i guess you could say... it also showed me that the role of shaman needs to fit the needs of the people not the needs of the people fiting to the role of the shaman.
                                    which means to me at least a few things but primarily that the role itself must be one that is shared by all so that abusive power dynamics do not develope. in some ways i feel that the role of shaman is perfectly suited for certain societies, but our own, non-tribal society must really look at what its authentic needs are and how this role must fullfill those needs. i onestly feel now more then ever that it is a burden/blessing that all need to carry not just the gifted.

                                    i think the best way we can warn others is to educate people on the reality of this work on its many many levels... get rid of the romatic allusions, and encourage peopel to question their motivations so that they can see clearly the motivations of others...
                                    i also think that empowering and nurturing the ability to heal to encourage every one to be self relient spiritualy in their power is super essential.
                                    i remember one morning after ceremony i had noticed all night how it was a really unique group of people who were very much in their power and not giving it over to the shaman, relying on him to do what they could do for themselves, and i pointed this out the next mornging in a shareing circle... the shaman had a really shocked look on his face, it had troubled him that i had said this and noticed this... and thats when he put the hooks into me.

                                    when you put some one between you and spirit, they relly on you and you on them, and they will do anything they can to keep it that way because they need you to be in that position, they make money off of you, or status... this work is about humble servitude not personal gain, and people who are even seeking personal healing and empowerment and growth often do so for personal gain and a shaman who sees this can play this card and fullfill these desires for some one... which is not really growth healing or empwoerment but the illusion of it, a false sense of it. real healing growth and empowerment flows through you to others, its not for your benifit but the benifit of all that is, so we can keep giving and helping and healing for the benifit of the whole and reminding people of this is really a good way of helping people stay safe...
                                    • Unsu...
                                       

                                      Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                      Fri, April 25, 2008 - 5:37 AM
                                      you yourself and spirit thats a nice one little, its so true about the middle man in everything!
                                      • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                        Fri, April 25, 2008 - 8:54 AM
                                        however there are middle men who don't want to get in the way of you and spirit, they're just there to connect you, to make the introduction and get outta the way..

                                        but yes it's becoming more and more apparent that no dependency is needed, as we evolve, we discover that others are not the source for our healing.

                                        and when we need help with this connection to spirit, with this pool of understanding within ourselves, by all means, let's go to a curandero or other healer,

                                        it's ideal to be choose someone who also wants us to draw from this very personal, sacred space, deep within.

                                        it may be better to wait for the right curandero to come along than to just drink the medicine every chance you get.


                                        • Unsu...
                                           

                                          Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                          Fri, April 25, 2008 - 9:40 AM
                                          WOW LLB! thanks for sharing all that !!! great stuff!

                                          truly !

                                          sometimes teachers are needed though... elders ...and i think we call them in based on what were putting out. i think they are just sides of ourself we want to see... want ... on some level... not necessarily conscious.

                                          ... and mamma Aya is a middle wo-man too.... in that sense ... no?
                                          • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                            Fri, April 25, 2008 - 9:51 AM
                                            Stella Maris-

                                            "...and i think we call them in based on what were putting out. "

                                            This is most definitely true in my experience, both in terms of my own relationship with Elders and what I've seen other experience as well.

                                            Veg
                                        • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                          Fri, April 25, 2008 - 9:50 AM
                                          rebecca-

                                          Some excellent points.

                                          It's good not to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.

                                          There are bad teachers, sure. But there are excellent ones as well. And when you find one, the medicine that comes from that relationship is priceless.

                                          Veg
                                          • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                            Fri, April 25, 2008 - 10:26 AM
                                            "and mamma Aya is a middle wo-man too.... in that sense ... no?"

                                            yah, and in some ways i've felt like she's more trustworthy than some of the people who deliver her, which is why i've wanted to be alone with her, just her and me...
                                            • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                              Fri, April 25, 2008 - 12:41 PM
                                              on the middle person...
                                              if they are good they arent between you and spirit at all, they nurture and foster that growth and learning.
                                              aya and well all entheogens dont really act as the middle man so to speak rolling with the analogy there... its not like they are nessecary for the relationship to exist in the first place, the relationship allready exists... elders teachers shamans entheogens spirit guides ect... they are there to help you with your relationship with spirit when you need it. any one that steps in the middle or any one YOU put between you and spirit needs to be looked at very clearly...
                                              i dont think any one here is going to say when helps needed we arent going to be open to help, butits YOUR relationship with that help that needs to be examined...
                                              sometimes when i am sick or messed up, even though i can help others doesnt allways mean that i am going to be able to best help myself... surgery isnt easy to do to your self, and if there is somthing you dont know that you need to know, how are you going to point that out to your self... so yeah you definitely need help and education and guidance from time to time... its the dependency thats suspect, as well as those that create that dependency in others for personal gain.

                                              another personal example...
                                              my old teacher would with hold information as well as "permission" to do certain ceremonies because he benifited from it and would make all kinds of other reasons, filling your head with doubt so that you were still dependent on him, his entire practice made it so that he was ontop and in control and gaining somthing. to me this stems from the myth of scarcity and not knowing how to create abundance...
                                              what i have noticed is that in ceremony people give over their ability to heal themselves their power to the "shaman" pumping him up making him powerfull enough to heal the group, but at the cost of their own personal development of the same abilities, and at the personal cost of the healer and the groups ability to know how to be part of the source of that energy itself... they dont see it in themselves they see it in some one else who sees it in themselves... and that person who sees it in themselves may not see it in others as well just in them, so that they can feel important or feel powerful or needed or usefull all kinds of dynamics play out in that... generaly though that persons relationship to the source is muddled and thus they need it from others because deep down though they have power they just dont see it from a selfless point of view fully... maybe partially but not fully.

                                              i look at people like the Kung! and how they all fullfill the role of shaman, and i look at some north american tribes who all have the oppertunity to fullfill that role.. and i look at tribes who work with ayahausca in the amazon where every one drinks and takes on that role of shaman as well... i look at that... and i look at teachers and people who relate to t he role in a more possesive and exclusive instead of inclusive relationship dynamic and i see a great potential for problems to occure...

                                              best way to avoid brujeria is to be your own shaman and to work with people who will encourage and empower you and nurture that with in you... thats what ive learned...
                                              • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                Fri, April 25, 2008 - 1:51 PM
                                                i worked with a guy who was amazing, humble, intuitive, easy-going, not once asked me for money, a really genuine, open-hearted guy...

                                                i told him what a great teacher he was, and that i wanted to study with him, and asked him who his teacher was..

                                                he said

                                                'the plants are my teachers, i can teach you if you want, but your lessons al depend on you."
                                                • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                  Fri, April 25, 2008 - 1:56 PM
                                                  see there you go...
                                                  thats what i liked about the man i met in pisac...
                                                  he said to me " Your a maestro!?"
                                                  i said no sanpedro is the maestro i am just a student...
                                                  he agreed emphatically that we are just the students of the plants...
                                                  the way i understand it the human teachers role is just to keep you out of trouble when you find your self drowning lol throw you a life line give you a reality check when you need one.
                                                  • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                    Fri, April 25, 2008 - 2:03 PM
                                                    "throw you a life line give you a reality check when you need one. "


                                                    sounds alot like the definition of a good friend.
                                                    • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                      Fri, April 25, 2008 - 2:23 PM
                                                      there you go...
                                                      i wouldnt trust or have a teacher that wasnt a good friend to be honest with you... any other type of teacher student relationship should be looked at with much suspicion... its contrived and dangerous IMHO...
                                                      a teacher thats not your friend well thats and adversary... lol
                                                      • Unsu...
                                                         

                                                        maestros

                                                        Mon, April 28, 2008 - 11:30 AM
                                                        it's interesting trying to find human teachers... i always had the romantic notion that i would find "my teacher" ... and s/he would open the gates and point me down the golden pathway towards the light ... with a wing to shield me if necessary ... always there watching me and hoping for my inevitable success :)

                                                        hah! ... makes me laugh hysterically as i stand here in the "thick of it" machete and compass in hand ...

                                                        every teacher i've ever met has just as many issues as the next guy ... as me for that matter...
                                                        but i have met some humble beings here who inspire me to no end! ... and like you said llb ... they view me as their equal (which always surprises the heck outa me) ... they view us all as equals ... and the great spirit as the great one .
                                                    • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                      Fri, April 25, 2008 - 3:08 PM
                                                      A life line sounds cool' but who's reality is being checked':)'~

                                                      Bliss'

                                                      Motumbu'~
                                                      • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                        Mon, April 28, 2008 - 11:54 AM
                                                        "i always had the romantic notion that i would find "my teacher" ... and s/he would open the gates and point me down the golden pathway towards the light ... with a wing to shield me if necessary ... always there watching me and hoping for my inevitable success :) "

                                                        yes, stella,


                                                        someone once told me ( i think it was richard G, actually..) that if someone offers to be my teacher, run the other direction..
                                                        • Unsu...
                                                           

                                                          Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                          Mon, April 28, 2008 - 11:59 AM
                                                          "that if someone offers to be my teacher, run the other direction.."

                                                          no doubt girl! you got an inner teacher! :)
                                                          • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                            Mon, April 28, 2008 - 12:39 PM
                                                            for sure! run like hell...
                                                            this is another problem with the pay and teach school sort of mentality...
                                                            if you can afford it you can be a shaman...
                                                            i think every one can be a shaman... but spiritual growth and finding that within your self and all around you, is not a comodity... but thats another subject... but i would say as well i dont trust any one who wants you to pay them to teach you this work...
                                                            • money for medicine

                                                              Mon, April 28, 2008 - 2:01 PM
                                                              what i'm finding is, the more "medicine" i fill myself with and then offer to others (love, healing, wisdom), the more my immediate needs are met. and sometimes that has nothing to do with money at all, sometimes it's trade, gifts, etc, and it turns out i don't need as much cash as i thought i did......as if the medicine supports me, the more i hand it out.

                                                              has alot to do with faith..
                                                              • Re: money for medicine

                                                                Mon, April 28, 2008 - 2:18 PM
                                                                totally!
                                                                teachers that dont see this are wounded by the scarcity myth thats devouring our planet... a sickness they spread to their students
                                                                • Re: money for medicine

                                                                  Mon, April 28, 2008 - 2:33 PM
                                                                  but what do you think about the whole "money magic, sacred money, spiritual money" movement that's happening?

                                                                  i find it to be a good idea, but has never helped me personally with my perception on cash..
                                                                  • Unsu...
                                                                     

                                                                    Re: money for medicine

                                                                    Mon, April 28, 2008 - 3:13 PM
                                                                    i don't know about it ... teachers, healers, shamans ... i know i am skeptical of people asking for money for trade of sacred work ... however it's not that i have any problem paying for healing! ... it is an issue at the forefront of my mind since i just began offering my time and knowledge of sacred singing... weighing what it is worth ... but it's like you say ... people offer me trades ... for the very things i need! ...

                                                                    ... again like anything ... it's the attitude behind it!

                                                                    when one gives with out expectation ... but with thankfullness in ones heart, one is never with out

                                                                    abundance is having what you need when you need it ... by whatever means it comes.
                                                                    • Re: money for medicine

                                                                      Mon, April 28, 2008 - 4:09 PM
                                                                      paying for spirit i no different IMHO then paying for sex... im not down with that, and i feel its unethical.
                                                                      paying for healing and paying for food is also in the same vein IMHO... reciprocity itself is sacred... but payment along with buying and selling owning, these are destructive ideas.
                                                                      we dont have to perpetuate these sorts of systems...

                                                                      The parable of the box by Derrick Jensen....

                                                                      " The box is full of salmon, and a man sits atop of this box. Long ago man hired armed guards to keep any one from eating his fish. The many people who sit next to the empty river starve to death. But they do not die of starvation. They die of belief. Everyone believes that the man atop the box owns the fish. The soldiers believe it, and they will kill to protect the illusion. The others believe it enough and they are willing to starve. But the truth is that there is a box, there is an emptied river, there is a man sitting atop the box, there are guns, and there are starving people."

                                                                      Low synergy cultures or "aggressive cultures reward actions that emphasize personal gain, even when and especially when that gain harms others in the community."
                                                                      "Nonagressive cultures eliminate the polarity between selfishness and altruism by making the two identical: In a "good" culture, the man atop the box from the parable above would have been scorned, despised, exiled, or other wise prevented from damaging the community. To behave in such a selfish and destructive manner would be considered insane. Even had he conceived such a perposturous idea as hording all of the fish, he would have been absolutely disallowed because the box was held at the expense of the majority, as well as at the expense of future generations. For him to be a rich and influential member of a "good" ( high synergy culture) culture, he would have had to give away as many or all of the fish. the act of giving would have made him rich in esteem. But he never would have been allowed to strip the river. There would have been no fear with the regard to the "gift" of fish, for social arrangements would have made him secure in his knowledge that if his next fishing trip failed his more successful neighbors would feed him just as this time he had fed them." Derrick Jensen A Language Older than Words...
                                                                      • Unsu...
                                                                         

                                                                        Re: money for medicine

                                                                        Mon, April 28, 2008 - 4:25 PM
                                                                        "reciprocity itself is sacred... but payment along with buying and selling owning, these are destructive ideas. "

                                                                        wonderful! ... indeed!

                                                                        ... what does IMHO mean? :)

                                                                        do you work? do you live in a sustainable community?
                                                                        • Re: money for medicine

                                                                          Mon, April 28, 2008 - 7:50 PM
                                                                          Stella: IMHO = in my humble opinion.

                                                                          I recently enjoyed a very loose, very relaxed, very unstructured yet intentional circle where payment was strictly donation. A truly liberating experience.
                                                        • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                          Mon, April 28, 2008 - 7:47 PM
                                                          rebecca: someone once told me ( i think it was richard G, actually..) that if someone offers to be my teacher, run the other direction..

                                                          "When the student is ready, the teacher dis-appears."

                                                          • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                            Mon, April 28, 2008 - 8:45 PM
                                                            "paying for spirit i no different IMHO then paying for sex... im not down with that, and i feel its unethical.
                                                            paying for healing and paying for food is also in the same vein IMHO... reciprocity itself is sacred... but payment along with buying and selling owning, these are destructive ideas.
                                                            we dont have to perpetuate these sorts of systems... "


                                                            yah little, i agree, i always feel uneasy with the idea of BUYING something as essential as water (just cus you bottled it means it's yours to sell!?!)

                                                            but hmm cant agree on the paying for spirit=paying for sex

                                                            cus spirit, when you get down to it, you can't buy OR sell it. it belongs to nobody.

                                                            now selling the ILLUSION of spirit, that happens ALL the TIME...

                                                            now, um, what did this have to do with predatory shamanry?



                                                            • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                              Tue, April 29, 2008 - 12:55 AM
                                                              it has to do with predatory shamanry when it deals with personal gain as the primary focus of some ones work...

                                                              i dont live in an intentional community and i do work... but i am working towards living in an intentional community and not working within the system any more...
                                                              however you dont need to live within an intentional community to do what im speaking of... ive spent years working with people who live nomadicly, share every thing, live in squats or camping or via barter/reciprocity and live off of interrupting the waste stream of American society, like raccoon people. a hard life, but ethicly resonant with the act of living.

                                                              part of the sickness inherent within western society is the buy/sell/own belief system its worked its way into nearly every ones life around the world and get perpetuated in how we relate to what could be sacred reciprocity. but when we mindless continue to buy/sell/own in this work we perpetuate a sickness that has MANY other symptoms that we wish to cure in doing this work in the first place... shamans that do this with out looking at this dynamic and curing it in the way they do the work are doing harm ultimately from what i have seen...
                                                              ive seen families that needed to do the work who showed up at ceremonies humiliated when they where asked to pay, not knowing that they there was a charge, these people had very little and it was pretty much demanded of them that they give what ever they could or even owe the shaman and pay him back some how latter. one year i did work with this hispanic woman who after the ceremony was over really emotional shared her anger and frustration that this work and healing was not available to her people, her community because of the cost. doing the work in this way is ultimately damaging and also dangerous in that it perpetuates power systems based around the myth of scarcity instead of the healing truth of abundance and the humility of having enough.
                                                              this is relevant because this whole post is in many ways focused on ethics, what is ethical and how we and others act ethically in regards to shamanry.
                                                              from what i have discovered is that doing this work with out thinking about both socially and ecologically responsible ethics is ultimately damaging in many ways, and must be questioned so that the work we do an support can have a resounding healing effect thats hear to stay.
                                                              i remember when i was doing healing work as my primary focus in life that i would never ask for anything from any one to do the work... often times it came at a cost to me. I had little to nothing and what i did get was dedicated to helping others in doing this work. One evening a friend i had helped out repeated in doing healing and guidance asked me what he could do to help me. I had always had a pay it forward sort of attitude, telling people to take what ever they had gained and to share it with the community, this sort of reciprocity was in itself a healing act bent on changing the way we live our lives in this society. when he asked me what i needed or what he could do for me.. i told him i had no idea, but that if he saw something that i needed he could give me a hand at any time and i would for sure appreciate it. my intention in saying this to him was to foster a culture of people who pay attention to the needs of others and give wisely helping those that need it when they do.. allowing spirit and intuition and compassion to guide the process. pay attention to the needs of others i told him, including me and see how you can give.
                                                              what i learned is that you allways get what you need to humbly keep doing the work... you dont have to ask for payment you dont need to charge money... doing so is harmful and those that do it this way ultimately miss out in a larger healing that effects all of us.

                                                              a big part of the reason why brujeria was put on me when it happened was BECAUSE of this sickness caused by perpetuating the myth of scarcity and the practices of this perpetuation. the shaman i was working with felt that it was money that was going to make his mission in life a success and he had to secure my role in that process by putting "hook" in me to keep me working with him and keeping the whole thing running. he was afraid of the scarcity myth and so used magical manipulation to secure his ability to keep his work going, which was brujeria and harmful to me... ultimately though i am greatful for the sickness as well as the cure because through out the whole process i was able to learn about how not to relate to this work and how to focus on the long standing work ahead reintroducing shamanry to western society and the healing that has to be done to benefit future generations.
                                                              its allowed me to take a step back and see why people are doing this work, what they need and what they are seeking. part of this work is being able to SEE the source of the sickness so you can know how to heal the sickness, and what i have seen is that there is a sickness that is currently intertwined with how we relate to reciprocity in this work that lays the ground work for brujeria and other sicknesses to manifest actually through this work... no beuno...no bueno...
                                                              • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                Tue, April 29, 2008 - 8:28 AM
                                                                yes, little,

                                                                im totally gonna be the devils advocate here

                                                                a shaman has three kids. they have no food at the moment. what if he does a ceremony, and because of THEIR issues with scarcity and povery mentality, NOBODY donates anything to the shaman and his family doesn't get to eat the next day, eventhough he worked hard all night? are you saying that even then he shouldn't ask for money?

                                                                i think you are speaking incredibly idealistically, and that's one thing i admire about you, but the reality is, so many people are poor, especially down there in SA, that we need to start from the ground up as far as helping them realise this is an abundant universe and nobody needs to hoard anything. how do you suggest we do that?
                                                                • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                  Tue, April 29, 2008 - 11:05 AM
                                                                  rebecca... now your perpetuating the scarcity myth...
                                                                  thats kinda how it works its subtle and is pretty ingrained in all of us...

                                                                  "a shaman has three kids. they have no food at the moment. what if he does a ceremony, and because of THEIR issues with scarcity and poverty mentality, NOBODY donates anything to the shaman and his family doesn't get to eat the next day, even though he worked hard all night? are you saying that even then he shouldn't ask for money?"

                                                                  i am saying the shaman doesnt need to ask for money, especially if hes doing his job well and isnt heart sick from the scarcity myth himself... try to live this way and then get back to me on this... its not an ideal its living a life of prayer and ive done it for years...
                                                                  and calling me idealistic is very condescending.


                                                                  what your talking about doesnt happen if your living that life of prayer and humble servitude... you get exactly what you need when you need it... and thats not being idealistic... this is what happens...

                                                                  poverty and scarcity is real because thats how we relate to the world... and how people who believe in the myth relate to us... just like any myth... if you believe in it it becomes a reality...

                                                                  we can stop believing in this myth and relate to life in a different way that creates abundance, giving, faith, community, but only enough for us to keep the cycle going...
                                                              • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                Tue, April 29, 2008 - 8:50 AM
                                                                litt...: the humility of having enough.

                                                                "Enough" is a beautiful thing to contemplate with deep honesty. It is so easy, in our western consumer culture, to absorb messages from media and society that determine what we aim for. Yet when we look closely, we find out "enough" is not just about the simplicity of maintaining the body and staying alive, but about acknowledging that so many of our desires do not actually lead to peace and happiness.

                                                                That said, I think we should tread lightly around turning our culture into a disease that needs fixing. Not only does that put us in a position of judging what is "enough" for another, but it fails to recognize that different people have different lessons to integrate in this lifetime. For instance, I can imagine a scenario where someone is working out their relationship to money such that "learning to play the game" is simply where they are at the time. Maybe further down the line, that person or that culture spontaneously shifts to a less self-oriented position, one where, with their money issues integrated, they come to that place where "having it all" is no longer *enough*!! - and are moved to serve their companions or share what they've earned.

                                                                In this Aya group I've become part of, the woman who runs it is very clear that there is no need to suffer through the ordeal of purging. Her tea is astonishingly gentle and joyous - a reflection of her own process, no doubt. Yet obviously some people truly need to dig in and confront their own toxic ideas - and for them a more intense "healing" circle may be entirely appropriate. It may even be ultimately useful, as you point out, to be "used" and dominated for a time so that certain lessons are integrated and lead to the exact perspective one needs for their life's work.

                                                                I just think it's really hard for any one of us, with our limited perspectives, to say what is right for another.

                                                                • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                  Tue, April 29, 2008 - 12:16 PM
                                                                  whether...

                                                                  looking at "enough" is an important thing to contemplate about your self... its confronting your own averice and fear of scarcity.

                                                                  though i need say what culture are you talking about when you say our culture?
                                                                  if you mean our society thats another subject... but im not a member of any american culture... america is composed of many cultures not just one that we all belong too.

                                                                  we cant say whats right for another... but we can acknowledge that when some one wrongs us that aint right...
                                                                  • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                    Tue, April 29, 2008 - 12:32 PM
                                                                    "calling me idealistic is very condescending. "

                                                                    im sorry, little, that was not meant as any type of personal prod or prick upon you. i meant to present that example as something that realistically happens, and yes it is true that the shaman in the example is likely ill with scarcity, but i've found that by personal experience that ASKING for what you need is a good way to get out of that trap. it's a way of realising the abundance that is available after thinking it didnt exist.
                                                                    • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                      Tue, April 29, 2008 - 2:10 PM
                                                                      asking for what you need....
                                                                      hmmm well yes asking for what you need is interesting...

                                                                      one day i needed money to keep going, doing healing work... i needed food, and i needed some one to talk to i was feeling rather lonely that day...
                                                                      i sat on the side walk and rolled some tobacco and while smoking i asked spirit to send me what i needed to keep doing this work for others... then i put out the tobacco and gave it as an offering to the street blowing my prayer into the loose tobacco left from the cigarette. then i sat there...
                                                                      after a while a woman sat down and we started talking about life and spirit and our struggles and she offered to buy me a cup of coffee... so we went to a coffee shop, while there she met a man who had been homeless in ashland oregon where she was from. she had allways given him food and money in the past and he remembered her. he had inherited a few million dollars and he thought we should go out to eat and have fun, because he really appriciated all the help he had received from her when he was homeless... he gave us each 20$ we bought tobacco and we went and got food and coffee and talked about life and spirit and spent all night in good company. we left that night feeling invigorated and happy, our loads lighter, and hearts stronger, and we got what we needed to keep giving... it wasnt much but it was enough to keep going and doing the work.

                                                                      so yes asking for what you need is important... i agree.
                                                                      when your living a life of prayer and humble servitude, you will never lack what you need to keep giving, you will allways have enough... and you will have no need to profit off of some one elses sickness... theres a difference between charging money and asking for what you need.
                                                                      after a ceremony we would pass a hat around and i would be lucky to get maybe some crystals or a 5 dollar bill... but the support i needed to keep doing the work came from the whole... and i never charged money and i never profited from another's misfortune or sickness...
                                                                      im not being a romantic idealist here i am speaking from experience...

                                                                      as i said the only reason why i am bringing this up on this topic is because this fear of scarcity is one of the issues that drives people to make the choice to harm others and manipulate others... its fear driven. the brujeria that was put on me as i pointed out came from this fear of scarcity, the need to charge money because of a lack in ones faith in our ability to get what we need humbly... it came from averice...
                                                                      so having been deeply effected by brujeria which stemed from this subject... the healing a recieved came in what i am discussing now...
                                                                  • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                    Tue, April 29, 2008 - 1:44 PM
                                                                    Yes, in this case I was using "culture" and "society" interchangeably.

                                                                    - As in "consumer culture".

                                                                    I hear what you're saying, and in the case of being wronged, I think it's fair to say if it was a wrong _to us_, but even there we can't say with certainty if it was wrong for "them" to wrong us! Sometimes it is only in doing wrong, making mistakes, mis-using power that we actually learn. And being the wronged one may actually be a case of helping someone else get their lesson, if you see what I mean.

                                                                    Few of us would be wronged willingly, perhaps - which maybe is why we don't know the roles we play!
                                                                    • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                      Tue, April 29, 2008 - 2:21 PM
                                                                      "- As in "consumer culture".

                                                                      not all of are a part of this culture... and its definitely not my culture...


                                                                      "I hear what you're saying, and in the case of being wronged, I think it's fair to say if it was a wrong _to us_, but even there we can't say with certainty if it was wrong for "them" to wrong us! Sometimes it is only in doing wrong, making mistakes, mis-using power that we actually learn. And being the wronged one may actually be a case of helping someone else get their lesson, if you see what I mean."

                                                                      yes for sure... thats a good way of looking at it... but some times the oppertunity to learn is hard when your killed by a brujo... unless you beleive in past lives i suppose...

                                                                      • CG
                                                                        CG
                                                                        offline 46

                                                                        Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                        Tue, April 29, 2008 - 7:51 PM
                                                                        I've been following this thread and really enjoyed hearing from everyone.
                                                                        If you don't mind my jumping in, watching this conversation about how we relate to each other reflects what I've been giving a lot of thought to lately. I've been thinking a lot about identity, and how we're related. If we're really one big family, then taking food or money from each other to increase our fortune, or what's on our plate at the expense of our brothers and sisters diminishes that larger familial relationship in our hearts and minds. They sort of need to be less related to our welfare, in our heart and mind, in order to decrease their holdings to enrich our own. Their place less important than the place we occupy.
                                                                        If it's even further along the scale than one big family and more like one cosmic couple with kids, then it's like trying to gather more attention to a single facet of the multifaceted gemstone of our collective soul. Like saying it's all about me first, when your brother, the facet next to you, is saying it's all about him, and your sister, the facet next to him, is saying it's all about her etc.

                                                                        I like the idea of abundance as a sort of recognition of the inherent equality and dignity of every individual.
                                                                        I'm working my way through trying to offer equal dignity to each facet of creation, and let that inform my behavior.

                                                                        I'm not trying to be all cosmic in my head, so I hope it doesn't sound like that, but I'm trying to see through to the devastating beauty reflected from within the heart and soul of those I meet, even when they behave in scarcity.

                                                                        Trying is the key for me, I'm not really there yet.
                                                                        Peace
                                                                        • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                          Tue, April 29, 2008 - 9:16 PM
                                                                          "I like the idea of abundance as a sort of recognition of the inherent equality and dignity of every individual.
                                                                          I'm working my way through trying to offer equal dignity to each facet of creation, and let that inform my behavior."

                                                                          now that is a worthy goal...
                                                                          • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                            Wed, April 30, 2008 - 7:08 AM
                                                                            I like the tone of this conversation as well, though it seems like the topic of money and its relationship to ceremony/spirituality is one of those topics that always kind of goes around in circles. Good to have the conversation nonetheless.....

                                                                            As for me and my relationship to abundance, well, I think there's a good balance to be struck there. At one point in time, some years ago, the Earth herself, Pachamamita, spoke up and let me know in no uncertain terms that I would never want for anything, that abundance is indeed there, and by not believing in scarcity or poverty, that I would always have what I needed. The key here is to be able to truly separate need from want, and know when even though something is not what you want, it is exactly what you need, and I'm talking spiritual, mental, physical, whatever.....

                                                                            But, it is also clear to me that that abundance also comes at the instigation of the work that we do. That work doesn't need to be spiritual necessarily, but any work that we do from our hearts does not go unrewarded. Maybe I'm just too ingrained in modern society, but I don't mind knowing that there's a certain degree of effort and toil that we have to put into it, and on her end of that karmic scale she showers us with abundance.

                                                                            As for money in ceremonies, yikes, I ain't touching that one! :)

                                                                            Hey LLB, I wonder if that guy put hooks in you on purpose to teach you how to heal 'em? You think that's a possibility? Well, even if that wasn't his intention, still, the universe worked through him to teach you how to heal so that's pretty cool eh? :)
                                                                            • CG
                                                                              CG
                                                                              offline 46

                                                                              Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                              Wed, April 30, 2008 - 7:49 AM
                                                                              Hey Jav,

                                                                              I was actually hearing LLB and the others from the perspective of brujeria being at root a diminishing way of treating someone, a harmful way of seeing someone, or "harming and harmful" through not seeing them as equal and dignified, but as dinner, (predatory and stalking) or the source of money to be taken, (robbery), or as a lessor intelligence (ego/teacher looking down)

                                                                              Their must be a way to have an honorable transaction, and I think LLB is suggesting some paradigms of reciprocity that are a movement toward a new recognition, a new seeing of our brothers ans sisters, and in that new alignment some type of honorable transaction in the heart, mind and vision that leads organically to a new behavior. One not harmful in intent or driven by the desperation of scarcity.

                                                                              Just my take on it, my story... And I guessing your sense of abundance was accompanied by an expanding heart and deepening trust in some way Jav, ......that it wasn't really just about money.

                                                                              If it was purely physical. the threat coming from someone, like if they threw a or big rock at me I'd go all ghetto on em. I'm from Oakland Ca, and if you run in some parts of that city your seen as prey. Better to bare your teeth and go nuts so they think twice if they see you again.

                                                                              On the world stage I'm down with nonviolence, personally I'll go all Tasmanian devil on anyone who strikes out a me and my family. My enlightenment only goes so far.



                                                                              • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                Wed, April 30, 2008 - 8:50 AM
                                                                                CG, you inspire some thoughts: I think the idea that "enlightenment" requires a passive "turning the other cheek" is one of those nice, Christian formulas where a perfectly sweet idea gets dogmafied to the point of demonizing an honest, biological reaction.

                                                                                Yes, we can absorb and transform some energies, but sometimes transformation requires unexpected routes. Again, the binary nature of the mind seeks to simplify into this-that, when life actually operates on all cylinders. At least that's what I see.

                                                                                Naturally, it's nice to think that if we treat all beings as friends and equals they will reciprocate in kind, but this is a misguided, if comforting, fantasy. Life is not about perfect balance, it's about dance.

                                                                                To act from freedom is to be able and willing to meet any situation as it unfolds - without preconceived ideas as to how we "should" act. These "shoulds" are encoded puritanism, IMO, which goes very deep in our story. When we face life as it is, we have the opportunity to respond as we are, with all abilities and possibilities at hand.

                                                                                Obviously, we're wired to defend our lives and loved ones. I'm not arguing our default setting shouldn't be a friendly orientation to all life (afterall!) but when danger is put in our way, we're also wired to face it down. I can't argue with that.
                                                                                • Unsu...
                                                                                   

                                                                                  Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                  Wed, April 30, 2008 - 9:47 AM
                                                                                  "I think the idea that "enlightenment" requires a passive "turning the other cheek" is one of those nice, Christian formulas where a perfectly sweet idea gets dogmafied to the point of demonizing an honest, biological reaction. "

                                                                                  agreed Wheather! ... honesty and humility are key to me... as i am learning now ...

                                                                                  i am seeing how drawing clear boundaries can be the most beneficial thing for myself, as well as for others... this does not come naturally to me... as i am of a highly nurturing nature ... and more often than not i want to give love and sweetness to all my brethren, and sister... especially when they are coming from a place of fear, anger, or hostility ... because at this point on my path ... i mostly see the wound this behavior stems from... (however abuse of trees, animals, and children really pisses me off!)

                                                                                  i have had a tendency in the past to accept the pain of these wounded individuals, who re-act out of fear ... in an attempt to give love where it is doubtlessly needed ... however i had a incomprehensive understanding of what love is ... or what a loving action can be ... (as i'm sure i still do) ...the magnitude of true love is unfathomable to human consciousness ... sometimes the most loving thing you can do is to ... to tell someone their actions are not okay with you ... in no uncertain terms ... it can even be in a way that "hurts" the individual ... but you will know if this comes from a place of egolessness, and love ... and that is the only way to truly overcome these wounds in the way we relate to each other ... from culture to culture ... within one culture ... or with in one personal relationship .... from a brujo who has his hooks in you, to your partner, to a group of your peers with whom you are trying to heal the scarcity myth... integrity of action stemming from gratitude, and love of life will never fail. ... unless judgment be placed upon how this should look, and the integrity thus stifled.
                                                                                  • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                    Wed, April 30, 2008 - 9:50 AM
                                                                                    Stella: sometimes the most loving thing you can do is to ...

                                                                                    I quite agree! Love is beyond our definitions, unless we say it is simply the appropriate response to the moment - and that can be anything.
                                                                              • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                Wed, April 30, 2008 - 1:29 PM
                                                                                "Their must be a way to have an honorable transaction, and I think LLB is suggesting some paradigms of reciprocity that are a movement toward a new recognition, a new seeing of our brothers ans sisters, and in that new alignment some type of honorable transaction in the heart, mind and vision that leads organically to a new behavior. One not harmful in intent or driven by the desperation of scarcity. "

                                                                                god yes CG thats exactly it! what i am learning through permaculture techniques and ecovillage design strategies as well as from spirit which led me to exploring these concepts is that perhaps even due to globalisation we have the ability now to create preferment settlements and communities based on abundance not scarcity, this creates an entirely different value system and way of relating to the world and each other, that perhaps the world hasnt really seen before, at least not like this.

                                                                                and you really summed up what i am saying really well! THANK YOU! thats wonderfull!
                                                                                its possible to do this but we have to give up the current way of seeing and doing things which creates the oppertunity for sickness to develope... its choosing health and abundance over sickness and scarcity for the most part...
                                                                                • CG
                                                                                  CG
                                                                                  offline 46

                                                                                  Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                  Wed, April 30, 2008 - 10:01 PM
                                                                                  It's funny LLB, but there's stuff I can't see clearly till I hear it from a brother or sister. When I do it knits together with what I've been thinking about and brings a kind of clarity that was just out of my reach. I owe a lot to folks like you and Rebecca, Jav, Weather and the rest.

                                                                                  It's like it is in ceremony, when it's not just me and the spirits, but a time where we blend a little, each of us giving room inside to the other, and I'm still me, but I'm stronger, more aware, and can see out of their eyes as I give them room to see out of mine. They help me become acquainted with this other side of my self, the one that arises in community.

                                                                                  I guess what I'm trying to say is thank you for the insight you all share, and for allowing me to incorporate your clarity. I knit it together with what I'm reaching for when you freely share your gifts this way. I become more aware, stronger from your contributions, and my vision sees farther with your vision beside me.

                                                                                  Cheers, and my hat's off to ya...





                                                                                  • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                    Wed, April 30, 2008 - 10:17 PM
                                                                                    "Cheers, and my hat's off to ya... "

                                                                                    And hat's off to you CG, really a beautiful and well put sentiment. But really, all your posts are and tend to synthesize, IMO, a lot of what people are feeling or discussing around. Thank you for stating those things simply and beautifully! :)
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                                                                              Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                              Wed, April 30, 2008 - 10:01 AM
                                                                              "Hey LLB, I wonder if that guy put hooks in you on purpose to teach you how to heal 'em? You think that's a possibility? Well, even if that wasn't his intention, still, the universe worked through him to teach you how to heal so that's pretty cool eh? :)"

                                                                              :) :) :) :)

                                                                              ... see thats abundance!
                                                                              • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                Wed, April 30, 2008 - 10:30 AM
                                                                                " have had a tendency in the past to accept the pain of these wounded individuals, who re-act out of fear ... in an attempt to give love where it is doubtlessly needed ... however i had a incomprehensive understanding of what love is.."

                                                                                yah, taking the pain of another can so often be confused with compassion, or empathy even..but it doesn't release anything if the wound is simply passed on to another person! i was conditioned in my upringing to do this, to carry the illness of my family so that my loved ones didn't have to feel the pain..it wasnt until i recognized what i was doing and did my best to stop, that i actually saw my loved ones grow and heal on their own accord. it strengthens the individual when you choose not to do their work for them, and it strengthens the relationship when we only take responsibility for our own shit (usually, that's plenty to work on!)...that's why working with a strong curandero with this notion is important, one who's done enough of his/her own personal work to realise where the healing's actually coming from.
                                                                            • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                              Wed, April 30, 2008 - 1:20 PM
                                                                              "Hey LLB, I wonder if that guy put hooks in you on purpose to teach you how to heal 'em? You think that's a possibility? Well, even if that wasn't his intention, still, the universe worked through him to teach you how to heal so that's pretty cool eh? :)"

                                                                              well i didnt heal them another curandero did... i didnt even know it was there as often is the case with brujeria... and i knew how to heal prior to that... his hooks actually dimisished my ability to do so so that i was dependant on him and his "teachings".
                                                                              however it did give me the value system that helps me avoid these things which is GOOD... so in that sense your right... i dont beleive in the cosmic victim thing ultimately... every cloud has a silver lining...
                                                                              :)
                                                                              • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                Wed, April 30, 2008 - 1:36 PM
                                                                                "it did give me the value system that helps me avoid these things which is GOOD"

                                                                                care to share how you avoid this, LLB?
                                                                                • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                  Wed, April 30, 2008 - 1:47 PM
                                                                                  you say that with such challenging subtext rebecca... lol

                                                                                  live a life a of prayer and abundance, dont charge for what your doing, be generous and humbly serve the whole of creation... pretty simple really.. not easy but simple...
                                                                                  those are the values ive learned that helps me to avoid working with people who will dont have those same values, and keeps me out of trouble myself...
                                                                                  these values have led me to work in a very different context then how i used too...
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                                                                                    Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                    Wed, April 30, 2008 - 3:32 PM
                                                                                    :) you guys (rebecca, llb) ! :) i love the light you both delve into!
                                                                                    what a great conversation this has been!

                                                                                    "live a life a of prayer and abundance, dont charge for what your doing, be generous and humbly serve the whole of creation... pretty simple really.. not easy but simple... "

                                                                                    there it is!

                                                                                    "use with harmful intent
                                                                                    i am learning that the plant is not only a deep healer,
                                                                                    but in certain hands has been used for all kinds of harmful things to gain revenge, power, to manipulate and to even kill another human being.
                                                                                    im wondering how the plant came to be used for these purposes and how these styles of paractice with the plant have fit in with others' experiences, if at all. "

                                                                                    IMHO as we all work to come into harmony ... and heal the wounded spaces with in our hearts ... so too we heal the whole of humanity... we see only the things which we can relate to... meaning that these things exist with in us personally! ... so by viewing actions in others we don't like (ie brujeria, scarcity) ... we can ask ourselves... what medicine does this have for me...why would i take offense to this? ... all the world is a reflection ...

                                                                                    y gracias madre por la limpia!
                                                                                    • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                      Wed, April 30, 2008 - 6:08 PM
                                                                                      ya know, since beginning this thread, my intentions with the medicine have become fine-tuned.

                                                                                      i have restructured my reason behind drinking,

                                                                                      it's not about my healing anymore

                                                                                      it's about how my healing can assist the healing of my relationships to other humans, to the plants, to the animals and the earth.

                                                                                      i feel more devoted to a life of service than ever before

                                                                                      that working on my shit as it comes up is the best way to relate to others and their issues.

                                                                                      man, i've got alot of work to do.

                                                                                      --rr
                                                                                      • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                        Wed, April 30, 2008 - 6:15 PM
                                                                                        Sweet, Rebecca - Don't be so hard on yourself! :)
                                                                                        • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                          Wed, April 30, 2008 - 7:43 PM
                                                                                          its like i just looked at the map and saw how many miles i might have to cover..whoa..
                                                                                          • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                            Wed, April 30, 2008 - 9:40 PM
                                                                                            Well, I'm fairly certain (could be wrong) that the road is infinite forwards and backwards, so might as well just walk right, right where you are this moment! :) I know how you feel about moving from healing self to working towards the healing of the all, or the more than one self, or the whole collective self if you will. I had that sensation in a ceremony once, moving from one to the other. It was a nice feeling for sure, but opens up a wide realm ahead, no doubt! :)
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                                                                                          Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                          Thu, May 1, 2008 - 11:09 AM
                                                                                          "Sweet, Rebecca - Don't be so hard on yourself! :)"

                                                                                          indeed! the path of healing others is synonymous with self healing ... in fact i think you can only heal others through healing the self... i think that is one way brujeria differs from a medicine path... in that the one doing the work thru spirit ... needs more work with in themselves... i know certain teachers/shaman/and healers leave me lit up ... and those are the ones so full of light themselves... so humble ... and these en-light-end beings ... are always so humble as to their status.... for they know ... as you know ... there is all-ways room for growth ... yet there is perfection in the essence of the now.
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                                                                                            Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                            Thu, May 1, 2008 - 11:15 AM
                                                                                            this reminds me of a conversation i was having with a friend the other day in regards to the difference between a healer/curandera/medicine wo-man ,a shaman, and a brujo... i am under the impression that a healer works thru bringing the light into a darkness, and illuminationg it thus , and that a shaman goes into the darkness to pull an essence from the dark into the light ... where as a brujo ... well ... thats what the whole thread's been about :) ...

                                                                                            i am curious of other peoples understanding of these terms... as my friend seemed to think i was alone in my understanding, and use of language.
                                                                                      • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                        Thu, May 1, 2008 - 11:31 AM
                                                                                        "
                                                                                        it's not about my healing anymore

                                                                                        it's about how my healing can assist the healing of my relationships to other humans, to the plants, to the animals and the earth.

                                                                                        i feel more devoted to a life of service than ever before"

                                                                                        GOOD FOR YOU REBECCA!!!
                                                                                        good for all of us!

                                                                                        CG thanks! i know exactly what you mean...
                                                                                        • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                          Thu, May 1, 2008 - 11:44 AM
                                                                                          "this reminds me of a conversation i was having with a friend the other day in regards to the difference between a healer/curandera/medicine wo-man ,a shaman, and a brujo... i am under the impression that a healer works thru bringing the light into a darkness, and illuminationg it thus , and that a shaman goes into the darkness to pull an essence from the dark into the light ... where as a brujo ... well ... thats what the whole thread's been about :) ...
                                                                                          "

                                                                                          i've noticed, too that there are people who do all of those things mentioned above, or one or two of them, like curandero/shamans or shaman/brujos..people who demonstrate all the skills you mentioned and actually perform them depending on what they find neccesary..

                                                                                          but the path of medicine is a truly wholistic thing, in that it takes an incredible amount of focus, honesty and commitment, so i can't say there aren't brujos with curandero tendencies, but if someone calls themselves a curandero and demonstrates brujo tenedencies, the healing that comes from the relationship may be only partially effective.
                                                                                          • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                            Thu, May 1, 2008 - 11:51 AM
                                                                                            Anybody have any opinion about male vs female approaches?

                                                                                            I ask because I'm rather excited about the feminine energy I see taking a different tack in terms of holding space and allowing new directions to unfold.

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                                                                                              Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                              Thu, May 1, 2008 - 12:12 PM
                                                                                              whew! :) thats a big question ! ... something i have given extensive thought to! .... i don't know many women on the path .. so i can really only speak of myself. ...

                                                                                              i feel there are big differences between the male / female approach, understanding, and application of these energies.
                                                                                              ... mainly being that women come from an emotional center... and go thru a phase of vision. and release/cleansing every moon.... i feel that the cleansing process might be a little less intense for us due to this predisposition.

                                                                                              in some of the other areas of my interest i note that the man and woman have different centers of "gravity" ... and that the chakras in these centers move in opposite directions ... hinting at the "Infinite" ... in a unification of these principles. ...

                                                                                              i find the imbalance between the receptive female energies, and the projectile male energy to be the biggest challenge facing humanity now. ... or by now i guess i mean the last several hundred thousand years :)
                                                                                              ... but i think now (as in this century) it can actually be balanced and harmonized.
                                                                                          • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                            Thu, May 1, 2008 - 12:09 PM
                                                                                            "but if someone calls themselves a curandero and demonstrates brujo tenedencies, the healing that comes from the relationship may be only partially effective."

                                                                                            that i think i very very true... or may seem effective but may just be putting you on a twisted path... look at the people in jones town, or the manson family... all led to thinking that what they were doing was good and thats extreme examples of how people are misled... by powerfull people, who could be equated with being brujos in their own right...

                                                                                            recently i had called to my attention to a some what famous person who has a ayahuasca clinic in peru who has an incredible reputation and good PR but who has been responsible for people really getting messed up by brujeria, attempting to seduce young men attending his clinic and weakening them with hard labor and a diet that is not the deita... ive heard people having to be cleaned up by other curanderos just from working with him... i wont say any names at the moment... but people go to this man for healing from all over the world and thats not what they get...




                                                                                            • Re: brujeria and predetory shamanry

                                                                                              Thu, May 1, 2008 - 12:15 PM
                                                                                              yeah bonnies book is great... and talks alot about brujeria as well its realities in peruvian traditions and how deadly it can be...
                                                                                              from her analysis of sanpedro curanderos which is a verry differant practice then with ayahausca the men have a more combatative practice... and learn from other curanderos more frequently where as the female curanderas take a more nurturing though tough role in healing and learn from the spirits and plants primarily...
                                                                                              there are definitely brujas though...
                                                                                              you dont hear about an awful lot of female curanderas in the vegetalismo practices with ayahasuca... they are out there though from what i hear... and quite good.

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