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Cannabis and Ayahuasca

topic posted Mon, January 15, 2007 - 8:47 AM by  2012Censored
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Greetings,

Does anyone have any info on how cannabis affects the Ayahuasca jorney ?

I had the experience of being in an Ayahusca ceremony (with a Shaman from Peru that now lives in Brasil) and evendo most people felt the effects of the medicine, i hardly felt anything and i did not vomit (not that i wanted to : ) It was all a "feeing" more than anything else for me. Hardly any visual efects.

Thanks for all feed back
posted by:
2012Censored
Costa Rica
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    Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

    Mon, January 15, 2007 - 9:14 AM
    i don't know how cannabis use would effect it....my guess would be not so much at all.

    as for your expereince, my first traditional ceremony was also not so "intoxciating", more jsut waiting for the effects to kick in

    i had much expereince already with other entheogens, so was prepared for a journey.

    i would just remind you that although you may not have felt much, it does not mean that mother aya was not working within you...

    we are given what we need....for whatever reason (perhaps never to be understood) you did not need to have those visuals, etc.

    strange, cuz on my second journey, i drank much less, but had a much more profound expereince with visions and time-dissolution, etc.

    happy trails,

    wade
  • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

    Mon, January 15, 2007 - 9:52 AM
    mj can actually enhance certain aspects of the journey, and at the same time numb plenty of others. many independent drinkers use it during ceremonies for controlling nausea and common stomach issues. i am no purist, but imho it's not really worth throwing mud on the windshield fo just a little bit of comfort. smoke later when you come down...where legal, of course. ;)
    • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

      Mon, January 15, 2007 - 10:54 AM
      I heard that smoking cannabis (yin) is a way to sort of relax into your journey- and tobacco (yang) is a way to be more alert and present. I'm hesitant to smoke cannabis for the after-journey thing because I just quit......does anyone have any ideas on alternatives?
      • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

        Mon, January 15, 2007 - 11:00 AM
        "I'm hesitant to smoke cannabis for the after-journey thing because I just quit......does anyone have any ideas on alternatives? "

        To accomplish what exactly?
    • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

      Mon, January 15, 2007 - 10:59 AM
      "controlling nausea and common stomach issues"

      The most effective thing for that is peppermint. When I have brought peppermint gum with me to control nausea in a ceremony, it usually results in zero nausea, even when I am about to purge. Often the only warning I would get that a purge was coming was just a sudden surge in salivation.

      Some people use ginger, but I find peppermint superior for all stomach issues.
  • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

    Mon, January 15, 2007 - 10:56 AM
    It sounds like you are asking two separate questions with no relationship to each other.

    If you think that visuals are what Ayahuasca is all about, you have been too influenced by the psychedelic crowd. Visuals are not what Ayahuasca is about. Visuals are one of the TOOLS that Ayahuasca can use in healing an transforming you. Sometimes she can use visuals to communicate something to do, but sometimes they are to keep your attention occupied while she does the deep work.

    But one thing I learned experience living in the Amazon jungle drinking Ayahuasca -- the Indians introduced me to Aya, and at the time I didn't really understand the differing roles played by the Vine and Leaf, but I learned this through my own experience -- is that there is NO CORRELATION BETWEEN HOW VISUAL A JOURNEY IS AND HOW DEEP IT IS.

    And, furthermore, she keeps on working on you the next day; the integration is part of the ceremony.

    This integration may be so subtle it is below the threshold of your conscious awareness, but you can become more and more sensitive to it. the more you work with La Madre. Dieta really helps her to do her work and to extend it.

    Here are some threads discussing Aya experiences with little or no visuals:
    forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php
    forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php

    As for your first question, which seems to have nothing to do with this, Cannabis and Ayahuasca should not be used together. Cannabis has a "defocusing" effect that can make it harder for Aya to do her work. In my experience, Amazonian shamans really do not like working with people who are under the influence of Cannabis and strongly advise against it.

    Now, it is true that Santo Daime uses Cannabis under certain circumstances, but they practice a kind of "collective shamanism" where the fuzzing of the individual energies makes it easier to blend them. That is a different kind of thing.
    • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

      Mon, January 15, 2007 - 11:23 AM
      Well, for starters, one of the shamans I worked with, while deep in my imagination, has quite a thing against good ol' ganja. I imagine his own personal history of misuse of the sacrement jaded his view towards it, but he considered it as bad as alcohol.

      Second of all, indeed, visuals do not have it all, and as much as they can aid, and make a deeply interesting experience, they *BY NO MEANS* mean that the experience has more or less potentcy. If you shut your eyes do you stop experiencing? Of course not. One of many more than 6 senses, my friend, but most humans make the mistake of thinking sight represents more or less the sum total of reality. And we get conditioned to it.

      I had an absolutely profoundly visual Reiki experience, more so than many dreamed LSD, Psilocybin, and yes, even imaginary experiences of the Mama... (which, have included, by the way, experiences of absolutely *NO* tangible effects)... and what that Reiki experience taught me I can sum up very simply.

      Your 3rd recieves stimulation, when you experience visuals. Nothing more.
      It helps for affirmation, and it helps for certain styles of work, but it has no more, or less, relevance than any other aspect of all that exists.

      Third, and finally, Gayle, please *PLEASE* don't go saying that Cannabis acts to de-focus.
      I have tremendous respect for the work you have done, and that which you have contributed to the community... but that view just re-hashes (harr) so much of the pre-existing propaganda. I respect that your perception may have shown you this, but I would suggest another look, in a solitudinous location.

      Cannabis brings you up a notch. And if your mind busily ticks away looking for distraction, you sure will notice it.
      And if you single pointedly focus your attention on anything, you iwll experience a very deep medetative state.

      I consider *ALL* entheogens, and indeed, psychoactives, though some more than others, to act like shining a magnifying glass on the fire burning inside you.
      Nothing you'll come across doesn't already reside within, in one form or another.
      And you'd better prepare yourself to face anything that you've already put in the way.

      The noisy mind has the most frequency, in most of this society, and also disguises itself better than all others, often time still functinioning merrily away, alongside whatever does the journeying.

      Spot on, y'alls.
    • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

      Sat, April 7, 2007 - 12:18 PM
      This thread has already developed into a comprehensive coverage of the subject, or question, and I agree with the notions of cannabis as a serious plant spirit, one which indeed, I suspect, for most people in Euro-American culture has served as a long-standing and often first time healing plant. It's how you use it....

      I have only a couple of anecdotes worth offering in this context. Recently, outside Pucallpa, I was in a group of seven people (ayahuasquero, four "clients", two of which were local youth, and the daughter and grandchild of the ayahuasquero) and as we sat down in the shelter and talked about our common journey, defined the set and setting, as it were, I said that "I have also brought a plant, which helps me if I need to recover my body...." and the daughter promptly half questioned half confirmed "...Marijuana?!". We drank.

      After the usual 45-60 min's I realised that I was just below the threshold of drifting into fractal geometry and losing my body, which made me feel, on the hand, content that I would not have to struggle to compose my physical and mental being, leaving me to do some work on some specific questions, and, on the other hand, the notion of wanting _just a wee bit more_ tickled my fancy. My partner was above threshold, drifting in and out of fractals and her body next to me (with approx. same does and a significantly smaller body mass) and I decided to add cannabis in order to determine if the two spirits in harmony could lift me a bit more up.

      Ayahuasca is a very jealous plant spirit and ignoring her, doubting her or otherwise upsetting her can propel you into despairing states, but I have found that they really get along together - perhaps they even like each other better than you, thus leaving you to go to work, while they perform the love and jealousy bit by themselves...

      The cannabis did lift me up a bit and I had the smoothest and must visionary experience I have had so far (just a beginner): clear visions connected to structured/coherent thoughts in answer to the question(s) I had posed to the spirit.

      Cannabis can be a very good teacher, especially for beginner's, combined with ayahuasca they can work wonders; but like with any other experiment: know what you're doing, practice each by themselves before combining them, so that you can facilitate, without too many surprises, a dialogue between them. There can be synergy, there is for me. I work with an ayahuasquero who flushes the spirit juice down with sugar cane liquor (I sometimes bring red wine for that purpose) and who enjoys cannabis, both as a companion when we drink or in its own right, particularly for morning walks (as I recommended, as learned from sadhus in the Himalayas) and also the day after drinking to make the integration of the journey more vivid, strong, intense perhaps, and focused.

      Of course ayahuasca, the brew, is so mysterious because there is an infinite range of mixtures possible - with, just in one botanical garden I visited, four different categories of the ayahuasca vine itself, attributable each to individual plants with individual histories, and two main categories of companion plants (chakruna & chaliponga), which of course will also have their respective histories and stages of growth and so on. Beyond tryptamine plants ayahuasca is often found in the company of its best friend, el tobacco. The sky is the limit to what you could add, - if you know or if you are told!

      The combinatory aspect (or not) of ayahuasca is of course shared with cannabis: either smoked pure (as also ayahuasca is drunk by some healers without the DMT), with tobacco, or with other herbs (a big market there). In some places hashish is filled with pure tobacco, for instance, to ferment and produce a heavier, deeper effect.

      Therefore, ayahuasca and cannabis share their best friend, the tobacco; and they both like to flirt; but, sort of, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime!? :)
  • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

    Mon, January 15, 2007 - 4:20 PM
    > although you may not have felt much, it does not mean that mother aya was not working within you...

    she was felt, all the way down and into i

    > we are given what we need

    no argument with this : )

    i did make some good friends, it seems : )

    > i drank much less, but had a much more profound expereince with visions and time-dissolution

    im sure not all is made with the same exact potency

    i did the first round and then when invited the second round, maybe an hour later

    > The most effective thing for that is peppermint

    someone had some of that there, i could smell it at one time

    > If you think that visuals are what Ayahuasca is all about, you have been too influenced by the psychedelic crowd.

    actually i was 'influenced" by some of the Ayahuasca paintings and stories i heard from others before me

    > If you think that visuals are what Ayahuasca is all about, you have been too influenced by the
    > psychedelic crowd. Visuals are not what Ayahuasca is about. Visuals are one of the
    > TOOLS that Ayahuasca can use in healing an transforming you

    i can agree with that

    > NO CORRELATION BETWEEN HOW VISUAL A JOURNEY IS AND HOW DEEP IT IS

    yes, it seems to be that way to me now

    > Cannabis and Ayahuasca should not be used together. Cannabis has a "defocusing"
    > effect that can make it harder for Aya to do her work. In my experience,

    that is what the Shaman said, and he did not allowed the use of Cannabis while the ceremony was going on.
    however, what i did before and after was on my own, and i do like Ganja, she has been with i for a long time

    to me, it goes well with the shrooms i use the most (Cubensis)

    > Now, it is true that Santo Daime uses Cannabis under certain circumstances

    i heard of ther people doing both (on their own, no Shaman there, but the user itself)

    > while deep in my imagination, has quite a thing against good ol' ganja.
    > I imagine his own personal history of misuse of the sacrement jaded his view towards it,
    > but he considered it as bad as alcohol. .

    that seemed to be the view of the Shaman in charge of the ceremony

    i think he said something about working with the "other" side of the brain,
    • Unsu...
       
      brother ozai

      i am glad you journeyed well
      whether or not it was what you*expected*

      i like to think that everyone will have their *own*
      experience
      and come what may
      and in what form is unique to each of ua as a seperate molecule of the divine whole
      and thus
      if one smokes green plants and another brown
      if one has visions yet another hears voices

      is it not all a manifestaion of the same
      individual encountering communioun with the all......?

      'the journey is yours
      the journey is ours
      own it
      share it"
  • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

    Wed, January 17, 2007 - 12:26 PM
    oh I find it helps..I wait until I have "died" and the light is all that is left. after the cosmic orgasm, holy weed is the divine helper for me..it brings me back to physical self,,,something to "do" on this plane
    • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

      Wed, January 17, 2007 - 1:01 PM
      I think it all depends on your relationship with cannabis and how you use it outside of the setting, I have smoked a few times, but always on the afterglow, I find that it can helps you to relax and get to sleep after a long night.

      Cannabis is as much if not even more of an individual teacher plant as ayahuasca is, and it affects a lot of people differently, some get social, some get inverted, some have problems with short term memory, some people can smoke daily without it really affecting them.

      I do not really think that saying that it is because the Daime conduct different ceremonies is a valid argument, and I think that maybe if the usage was reversed and traditional curanderismo used it and daime didnt, there would be people saying the exact same thing but the other way around.
      • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

        Thu, January 18, 2007 - 4:40 AM
        Given the profound nature of my experience, last night, with Mama Ganja, I will agree with double the force I would have, previously, with what Johan said.

        Full blown visual experiences (Buddha on the road. Passed by), full blown emotional, energetic, balancing, remembering, pranic, kundalinic, Didjeridoo'ed (DUUUUUDE) experience.

        As profound as any other I have experienced.
        I felt Mama Yage in me as well, and the work she has already brought about.
        Every one helps us to remember.

        Nowhere, no time, no thing, has more importance than to stop destracting yourself, and remember. Just remember.
        You already know.
      • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

        Sat, January 20, 2007 - 6:55 PM
        > Cannabis is as much if not even more of an individual teacher plant as ayahuasca

        that's how i see it,

        cannabis has been my medicine, my teacher, my lover and my friend for several decades : )

        is a part of me, just like the roots and the leaves that i have eaten or drank

        she lives in every cell and hair i have

        the vine and the leaves of Aya are newer to me, but i fell that we will walk as one in the future, time will tell

        thanks again to all for all feed back

        with high respects, namaste to all readers
        • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

          Sun, January 21, 2007 - 10:11 AM
          oh yeah, ganja is a long time friend~
          I was recently shunned at a ceremony because I asked someone for a paper.
          much to my surprise, for a second. I argued for a minute, then I forgot about it, and didn't care to smoke.
          but it still seemed to bother the two facilitators that I had some with me. They talked about it
          with each other in private. and after a while it became a red flag to them that I did not belong there.
          after a couple more red flags (not wearing all white), I was asked to leave the circle before the ceremony even started.
          What hypocrits I thought. Being vegetalist, but discarding Santa Maria. The shaman had his personal issues with the Ganja.
          And because I was unaware of this rule in his circle and other rules. I was no good. I hear he lead a good ceremony. It's kinda bothered me that I was not allowed to attend. It's part of my learning since then.. And for seperate reasons Im taking a break from smoking for at least 3 months. I say learn all the rules of diet pertaining to the shaman you're going to sit with. it will save you the embarassment I had.
          • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

            Sun, January 21, 2007 - 10:17 AM
            One more thign Ozai~ according to Ayurveda, Ganja is a stomach medicine, so this may assist your belly in digesting the brew. making you more comfortable and possibly keep you from purging. I have sat with a shamano who not only smoked a little ganja himself in ceremony but allowed others to do so as well. Not alot of smoking just a little.
          • Re: Cannabis and Ayahuasca

            Sun, January 21, 2007 - 4:05 PM
            > The shaman had his personal issues with the Ganja

            yep, is like religions, once some finds something that makes 'em feel "enlighted" or closer to "G*o*d", all of the sudden, everyone elses faiths or medicine becomes something "undesirable".

            it seems the Shaman had ruff times with his life bc of his own choices (getting drunk and/or wasted with ganja), to the point that his family abandoned him, not due to Ganja or liquor, but due to his own lack of self control with this substances. so instead of blaiming his own lack self control , the "other" medicines get the bad rap.

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