Ayahuasca and Sustainability

topic posted Sun, March 30, 2008 - 5:59 PM by  Jav
Some posts from LLB on another thread got me thinking that this topic deserved its own thread on here. I remember discussing this before, but can't remember if that was on a thread on this tribe or not.

Basically, how do you guys feel about the environmental footprint of flying around the world to drink of the medicine. Do you feel that it's a balanced equation in terms of how much pollution is being emitted (jet fuel and others) by going to Peru or Brazil to drink? What about sustainabillity? There are very few environments where aya can really grow very well. So do you think it's valid to take her out of the amazon and into your bioregion, or do you feel like in the long run you want to work more with plants that thrive in your bioregion?

For me, well, three things: one, Santiago Chile is not that far from Iquitos where most aya comes from (though sometimes folks go pick her up in Lima); two, my curandero I work with lives here and is from here, and travels to Peru a few times a year, and brings back medicine which keeps a fairly large community supplied here; and three, I feel like in the long run I will likely work more with cactii which grow easily around here and require no transport or anything, just planting and tending.

These three factors are how I justify my aya-coligical footprint.

What about you all? What do you think of this topic? No right or wrong answers, just genuinely curious as to your views on the balance between partaking of the medicine and minimizing your eco footprint.

:)
posted by:
Jav
offline Jav
Chile
  • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

    Sun, March 30, 2008 - 6:12 PM
    like i said in the other thread, i feel like the most sustainable way for us northerners to take the medicine is to wait for it to come to us, or to utilize the other entheogens that our natural environment has produced for us... that way we're not wasting fuel to fly all the way down to SA.

    • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

      Sun, March 30, 2008 - 6:57 PM
      "like i said in the other thread, i feel like the most sustainable way for us northerners to take the medicine is to wait for it to come to us, or to utilize the other entheogens that our natural environment has produced for us... that way we're not wasting fuel to fly all the way down to SA. "

      for it to come to you is still not a sustainable action. actually look at it and see what kind of impact it coming to you has.

      any one seen what the oil companies are doing to the Shuar of Ecuador, or to the Ecuadorian rainforest, or what that cheap oil from Venesuala is doing to the jungle there? do we have permission form those trees and those animals and those forest peoples to do that to them so we can drink ayahausca and have our spiritual healing at the cost of another's life? these are questions that must be asked and intigrated into your intention and motivation for drinking in the first place...
      • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

        Sun, March 30, 2008 - 7:18 PM
        I just want to reiterate that NO MATTER how deeply you look into whether something is more or less sustainable the fact of the matter is you will never be able to see the full impact that out sourcing actually has both ecologically and socially because you don't live in the place that your out sourcing from... no matter how you spin it you cant know the actual impact your making... you just have to know that your making an impact, and then look and see if you can make a sustainable impact where you live by not out sourcing or by doing so intelligently enough such as with the permaculture ethic so that your outsourcing becomes a spark for sustainability.
        an example being importing/outsourcing seeds that can then produce more and more seeds and be harvested and continuously benifit a community of life.
  • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

    Sun, March 30, 2008 - 6:53 PM
    this is a subject i have brought up repeatedly over and over again in the ayahausca community. with many mixed results i might add...
    what i have learned personaly from drinking ayahausca with south amerrican hamans in the PNW west is not to drink ayahausca with shamans in the PNW... mostly because its not sustainable but also because it makes it difficult to establish ones own relationship as an animist when your focusing on plants and places that are some one else bioregion not your own...

    that aside, i have looked at it from many differant points of view... i like what ayahuasca does, it think its amazing... the ayahausca effect either by ayahausca proper or an analog is just plain amazing... i personaly have found that that in the united states prairiehuasca ( pardon the funny name, its a bit inappropriate) is the closest thing to a sustainable ayahausca analog that we have that matches the effectiveness of traditional ayahuasca. it takes a bit to process but the interesting thing is that demanthus or illinios bundle weed grows and has been sown by the governments in massive quanties to feed grazing animals all through the interior of the united states it grows in areas where there is bad soil as well... also growing near and sometimes beneath these plants is tribulous terrestrious... or goats head as its some times called... goats head has enough harmaline and harmine in it to make it slightly effective as an maoi for ayahausca... another plant that has taken over and is invasive as well in the united states like tribulous is syrian rue... they produce massive seeds and a little goes along way, syrian rue as well as demanthus can be sustianably harvested ( indeed it should be due to the fact its invasive ie your doing the ecosystems a favor, there for aiding instead of harming the ecosystem) and produced into a local ayahuasca analog or can be traded between bioregions much as salmon was once traded to the great plains bioregion from the PNW, with minimal impact in comparision to the ecological foot print of ayahausca being imported from either Hawaii or the amazon.

    people will argue that the impact is less then we think but is any impact nessecary at all to fullfill what ever needs ayahausca is to fullfill for you? do a cost benefit analysis including what your intentions are and what the social as well as ecological impact is... and see if what your getting from the experinces of drinking makes up for the damage done... and if you are getting something from this that worth the ecological and social harms of out sourcing and global trade, why not work with plants that can be either grown or wild crafted in your area or at least much much nearer to you.
    there are many tryptamine producing plants and more harmine and harmaline producing plants then we susspected... both tribulous and syrian rue are noxious weeds and invasise species to the north american continent... and have medicinal effects that go beyond just being entheogenic as well.
    not to mention that working with local entheogens and wildcrafting or growing your own intigrate you into your bioregion or life palce.
    it has been shown that communities that out source thier food or other resources and depend on out sourcing fail to respect or take care of the place they love which mean there are both socail and ecological impacts in the place that is out sourcing and the place that is out sourced too...
    this is an important point to look at... and to look at it honestly and from many different angles... regardless of how much your getting from your ayahausca drinking from the amazon your still out sourcing and there is an impact, the scary part of this is you cannot see the impact you create when you out source... that is the nature of out sourcing. the one who out sources cannot see the damage that they are doing and fails to see a connection between the out sourcing and the social and ecological ills in their own life place ie bioregion.

    people argue however well i get so muchhealing and it does so much good for the world and me and my community... well is that really true... there are many unseen things that go along with this... you are essentially out sourcing a cultural healing practice, you are out sourcing a plant medicine as well... what are the actual impacts? jut like with food or any other thing that is out sourced like i said the effects are mostly unseen by the outsourcer... so the real question is how do you know that the impact your making by drinking ayahausca is good... what if it is one step forward two steps back by this outsourcing of ayahuasca? the fact is its such a complicated thing that to ask this question requires alot of knowledge as it is and its not an easy answer to come too... so most people dont even care to look at it...


    Sustainability:
    we can easily look at just the word sustainability. for something to be sustainable it has to be able to sustain itself perhaps forever unless conditions change that makes it difficult or impossible to do so... ( solar would work for ever as a sustainable renewable resource unless the sun was blocked out by dust from a asteroid striking the earth for example). for something to be unsustainable means that it cannot be sustained. currently we depend upon nonrenewable resources to import both shamans and medicinal plants from differrant places around the globe, we also rely upon nonrenewable resources to go to the places where these plants and shamans are as well... the use of nonrenewable resources has a tremendous ecological and social foot print no matter how you shake it, there is nothing good about it period in permaculture the use of nonrenewable resources is considered immoral even unless it is done just once to create a renewable system. this takes intelligence and planning and foresight to create the renewable sustainable system in the first place which very few people are actually doing when working with ayahusca either at home or in peru or where ever...

    if one was to seek out working with ayahuasca for the actual purpose of creating a newrewable and sustianable healing system perhaps working with other plants that are local and have less of an ecological foot print or that they wished to learn ways of relating the practice of vegetalismo in their own life place in an adaptive strategy then much like in permaculture it would be permissible and nonneglegent in its intention.
    the damage being done by drinking ayahausca in what ever capacity is not debatable at this point unless your totaly in denile... how deep the impact is can be debated however... the question is though is it nessesary and if so why? especially when there are alternatives and ayahausca analogs around the world that can be sustainably cultivated or harvested.
    the effect of these harmine and tryptamine combinations are emensely important, and very good healers and teachers for many people... but you cannot turn a blind eye to the impact they make if not done sustianably.

    my permaculture based recommendation:
    if your going to work with ayahuasca or other out sourced plants or traditions of healing... do not become dependent upon the outsourcing... just like in permaculture when its acceptable to use a tractor or some other non-sustainable something or other do so with a plan. acknowledge that what your doing is not sustainable and include that knowledge into your intention for doing so, have a plan, look at what your doing and why in a sort of long term repercussion point of view, and be honest with your self and your motivations. think globally and act locally acknowledge your impact and plan around that, making it ok to work form that unsustainable action at least once so that you dont have to do it again...
    if the drinking of ayahausca or the visiting of the amazing or of the amazon visiting you can be done in a way that is like the use of the tractor in permaculture design of a garden or a house it only needs to be done once and a new sustainable system must come forth from that action for it to be worth while to the impact it has created.



    like i said this is likely to spark debates... however ive allready had many of these debates... do your home work look into this your self... look into the damage done by importing just bananas from south america for example, keep pulling the string until it all unravels... you can find your own ayahuasca drinking connected to the war in iraq for example... your going to have to include your part in this play... and rationalize it before making an arguement... because personally there is no arguement... the practices of drinking ayahuasca and going to peru to do so and bringing peru to us is not sustianable... it cannot be sustained and there for we cannot keep doing it forever... or much longer for that matter... so do it with a clear conscience with out denile of the impacts made, and do it with a sort of long term intelligent investment... yoru impacting the lives of people both human and other than human... entire ecosystems as well with out asking them if you could do so either... so do so intelligently and compassionately and wisely...

    • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

      Sun, March 30, 2008 - 7:51 PM
      There is literally no other plant that is so easy to grow as the vine.... There are plantations eveywhere. We have one as well. And chaliponga is also very easy and there are plantations of this as well. The farmers have understood and have responded.
      Years ago.
      this is Peru, not Brazil. The SD are cooking with vine that is half inch thick. Bad planning.

      Here in Peru the plantations are 6 years old and more growing very day.
      • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

        Sun, March 30, 2008 - 8:36 PM
        well thats in peru, of coarse its sustainable to grow it in it natural environment... growing it else where sustainably so that it can be drank at the quantity that is required and the frequency as well is another thing entirely... no one is debating the sustianability of growing it in SA mariella. not at all...
        its the frequent importation of it thats the concern.
        i suppose you could fill a hold of a large sail boat with vine and leaf, but then one would have to include the time of a mans life sailing it here into the equation...
    • om
      om
      offline 53

      Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

      Sun, March 30, 2008 - 8:34 PM
      awesome! well said tihkal
      • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

        Sun, March 30, 2008 - 8:58 PM
        seems like the same subject is being risen in another thread, so i'm repeating myself here....

        im saying that ONE person bringing ayahuasca to the north uses LESS fuel than a thousand of us going to the jungle, therefore doesn't take as much from the planet's resources.

        i trust that the earth, eventhough she's having a real tough time right now, will restore herself to balance when she's good and ready. it would be arrogant of us to think we can do it ourselves. until then, i'm going to do what i can as an individual to follow my instincts here, which usually point toward travel. to peru. and i do hope that those who wich to journey the globe for spiritual understanding choose to do so as well, because genuine connection with people/plants/animals/parts of the earth that are different can generate all kinds of healing and respect for the earth's diverse ecology that would not come from staying in one place your whole life.
        • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

          Sun, March 30, 2008 - 9:05 PM
          i also wanted to add that i am not big on debating or coercing people to "see it my way", but eventhough i feel like little's strong feelings about outsourcing are extremely valid and very truthful,

          i am not convinced that transport of ayahuasca to the north nor transport of people to the south for ayahuasca does more harm to the planet, its people or to the symbiosis of all beings on the globe.

          for the people who are drawn to it, i feel like one of the things ayahuasca has been mentioned to do is to help individuals become more aware of the environment.

          let's take baby steps towards sustainability.

          much love and huge blessings for this incredibly stimulating conversation.

          i've got huge amounts of respect for you, little, and feel like you have alot to teach.

          from the heart,

          rebecca
          • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

            Sun, March 30, 2008 - 10:05 PM
            "i am not convinced that transport of ayahuasca to the north nor transport of people to the south for ayahuasca does more harm to the planet, its people or to the symbiosis of all beings on the globe."

            i know your not most people aren't... but most people aren't the actual impact we talk about so impersonally... so even if they see the impact that they help to contribute to no matter how small its not happening to them dirrectly so its hard to REALIZE within your self.

            there seems to be an issue of scale thats hanging you and many others up as well... "well its only a little contribution to the problem not a big one..."
            one grain of sand rarely tips the scale but many grains of sand over and over again begin to bring the scale down even when the size of the object on the other side is huge... it only takes the right amount of grains to out weigh it.
            your grain of sand no mater what contributes to the tipping of the scale. and we have to know that and internalize it and do something about that.. feel it in your heart and allow it to shift your motivations and actions.

            "for the people who are drawn to it, i feel like one of the things ayahuasca has been mentioned to do is to help individuals become more aware of the environment."

            very true! it does... its message to me was don't rely upon me, find alternative learn to love where you live and depend on it because it depends on you doing so and so does the amazon. it was ayahuasca that cut me through the globalization apathy and made me into a bioregionalist ironically ( or at least it really helped to do so...) "your hurting the earth and its people by drinking me" you had better make it worth it son...
            so in a way i am just repeating the message i got from drinking ayahausca. if people need to find this out for themselves and wont listen to a message from the plant from some one elses mouth... i cant help that personally... its a damn shame honeslty... but i had to touch the flame to know it was hot as a child myself...

            "let's take baby steps towards sustainability. "

            may I ask at whos exspense? certainly not ours... we consume the majority of the worlds resources so its not going to be at our expsense... but then again it is... we look at regional crime statistics and we look at disease and such many of americas problems even the war on terror is because globalization has led us to not feeling the actual need for sustianability... that authentic desperateneed for american sustianablity is instead felt by iraqi children and africa and mexico and all ofthe places inthe world that the great empires have colonized and turned into cesspools, and the source of our affluence...
            baby steps are not going to make much of a difference at this point not when two steps forward are contradicted by people who could really care less at all and just need to compensate for their insecurities with shopping therapy at the local mall. even if we were all to be complete and udder radicales towards making the world more sustainable we have already made some pretty major and dangerous mistakes... dead zones in our oceans, species lost, the threat of bees no longer pollinating our flowers because they are dieing off for unknown reasons, the desertification of rainforests, oh yeah and climate change... dont forget that... a total shrinking of land mass on this plant due to rising ocean levels as well as the change in climate. these are things that have allready happened and we are going to have to live with these mistakes in a more ecologicaly impoverished world... not to mention the social and cultural poverty we have traded for thousands of world languages and cognitive systems, wisdom and knowlegde for ever lost, all because of the way of we we defend out of averice and apathy... the bad choices we defend and the denile we defend.

            the decissions to not localize and become people of place and to live more sustainable lives is impoverishing the world... its making us autistic... and baby steps are an expression of our apathy and averice IMHO... why choose baby steps when we know the impact we make with by not makeing the steps we actually can make. to see that we can make such steps but choose not to is amazing...
          • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

            Sun, March 30, 2008 - 10:06 PM
            "much love and huge blessings for this incredibly stimulating conversation."

            like wise!

            "i've got huge amounts of respect for you,"

            and i you...

            " and feel like you have alot to teach."

            we all do!
            • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

              Mon, March 31, 2008 - 1:00 PM
              He he, LLB this is one of your "hot topics" for sure, lol!

              As for me, I don't know really what the answer is to the question of ayahuasca contributing or not to environmental devastation via people travelling to Peru and Brazil and curanderos travelling to the US, Europe and others.

              On the one hand, I understand the argument that every drop of water or grain of sand contributes to the overall problem. The problem of pollution from airplanes and oil consumption, that is. But on the other hand, I also believe that the amount of people travelling the world on ayahuasca related travels is a very small percentage of the people travelling on planes today. In other words, if everyone stopped travelling to Peru for aya, and curanderos stopped travelling to other places, that this wouldn't really make a difference in terms of global demand for flights. These flights would keep on chugging along as if nothing had happened. I think.....

              Then there's the argument that people going to Peru are contributing to the local economy and are expanding awareness of tropical environments and issues, and therefore benefitting the earth as well. How do weight this versus the other? Which is heavier?

              As far as consuming plants from far away being detrimental to people's abilities to make meaningful relationships with their bioregion......I don't know. I mean, drinking aya I believe makes people much more in tune with their environments, and in the long run wanting to establish closer links with their own landscape. Do I begrudge them the fact that it took a foreign plant to get them there? Not at all.....I really believe that aya getting around the world is more beneficial than detrimental in the big scheme of things.

              As far as taking responsibility for the death of Iraqi children, I mean, that's just kind of hard to avoid. Unless of course you never use a car, or a bus, or a plane, or a cab, or any electric apparatus (which are often run of fossil fuel based electricity, not hydro), etc. Do you LLB feel responsible for the death of Salmon? You live in the PNW, all your electricity comes from dams, and yet you keep cacti indoors in the winter no, under lights? So how do you justify that? On other threads you've talked about your affinity for cacti in the PNW, but uuuuh, there's not a snowballs chance in hell those things can survive outdoors where you live. That's kind of unsustainable isn't it?

              I'm not trying to attack you either, I'm just saying, we all seem to rationalize the pattern that works for us, and it's easy to harp on other's paths......

              But really then, what I want to know for the folks at large, is do you feel aya is teaching you to work more with your local plants also, and connect with your local landscape? Or do you think you will forever have to travel to Peru and back home to get your fill of medicine?

              :)
              • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

                Tue, April 1, 2008 - 5:25 AM
                So much to say about the splinters of others, so little to say about our own logs.......
                • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

                  Tue, April 1, 2008 - 9:43 AM
                  well little's obviously an expert on the subject of sustainability and has a strong opinion that importing ayahuasca AND travelling to drink ayahuasca is not the sustainable choice.

                  seems that growing one's own ayahuasca and utilizing local entheogens is a more healthy alternative in the long run.

                  but stop thousands of people from travelling to the amazon for medicine? start taking other plant medicines that have different qualities, different spirits, different uses and different ceremonies and stay in one place just because an expert on sustainability and permaculture who openly doesn't care for ayahuasca all that much says so?

                  i say baby steps because people don't change over night. little, you have wonderful ideas and like i said, i'd love to learn more practical ways to honor the earth at your instruction, but if you really want people to reduce their footprint, you have to be patient and accept that ecological conciousness is a PROCESS for most people, and if you gently guide them thru it, instead of debating with their lack of understandind on the subject that you have mastered, you'll be heard much clearer, and your tools can be used by all to honor the earth, because youre right, we can always improve how we impact our environment.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

                    Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:30 AM
                    The only way you can be sure of not feeding a fat cat economy is grow your own~

                    I haven't been to Peru, but I got plants' lots of plants'

                    Summer is here, we will have even more plants'

                    wow, can't wait'

                    Fresh chakruna' mmmmmmmmmmmhhh'

                    Fesh vine'

                    Fresh Mapacho'

                    Oliloque'

                    Cacti'

                    Khat'~

                    Epherda'

                    Struth the list is endlessly mind blowing' with a 6-8 month growing season'

                    Shrooms' smokables' wow, why you need to go to Peru' or anywher other than your back yard'

                    No taxes'

                    no middle men'

                    No rip offs'

                    Bliss'

                    Motumbu'
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

                    Tue, April 1, 2008 - 11:16 AM
                    Hello Mariella,

                    I never heard that a SD community was cooking with half inch vines. All the centers go to the jungle to collect the vine, replacing them by newly planted ones in order for the cycle to continue. Usually they are way thicker than a city guy like me can handle and the blisters I got in my palms are always a reminder. And that happens in all centers, no matter where they are.

                    Small and recognized groups have ties with veterans, going to their making to share the sacrament in proportion, or by having formal connections with them. Perhaps this might come from an isolated individual, in his / her home or small ranch, or a small, independent group that doesn’t know what they are doing.

                    Blessings,
                    Rodrigo.
                • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

                  Tue, April 1, 2008 - 12:28 PM
                  "So much to say about the splinters of others, so little to say about our own logs....... "
                  yes jav i to contribute to it all as well... but thats not my long term plan either...
                  for one ive been attempting to share bioregional animism as to find a way to help people establish relationships with where they are and allow new shamanic traditions to come forth from that relationship, i also am going to be taking a permaculture class this month then a permaculture and ecovillage design course this coming fall, and i will also be doing some volunteer work at the cob cottage company and hopefully get a chance to learn to build with cob there....
                  my goal is to have a bioregional animist village, off grid and sustainable... and to bee able to change these living practices which are damaging the earth and her children. My goal is to do this with the aid of the local spirits and plant teachers... with the perrmaculture ethic as well non-local plants are also worked with, i dont grow my cactus under lights at all, they hang out and some of them die and some of them live, they go dormant, then i take them out side and they pop right up during the spring all the way to the summer.

                  once again in permacultures ethics its ok to work with something thats non-sustainable inorder to begin a sustainable system... at the moment this feels where i am at...
                  i am admittedly still locked into some of the consumer cultures waste streams, born into them but i am working to swim on out of them. so yes i contribute as well... difference is I admit it and i am willing to work towards no longer doing so. thats my whole lifes focus honestly...

                  its hard shifting from this way of life we have been born into into one thats sustainable, but personally i want to try to at least start with the source of my guidance healing and inspiration with the plants that i work with for medicine. that seems to make the most sense to me personally...
              • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

                Tue, April 1, 2008 - 2:34 PM
                "but stop thousands of people from travelling to the amazon for medicine? start taking other plant medicines that have different qualities, different spirits, different uses and different ceremonies and stay in one place just because an expert on sustainability and permaculture who openly doesn't care for ayahuasca all that much says so?"

                for one im no expert on either subject but i am learning...
                for two i am not saying stop working with ayahuasca i am saying do so with a bit clearer of an intention... look at what your doing and why and what the impact is. like i said its ethically OK to start a sustainable system with an unsustainable beginning but you have to figure out how your going to be doing this, and how this relates to your drinking ayahausca in the amazon or shipping it up here!

                yes there are other options available... if you have ever had an ayahuasca analog you would know that its not to differrant... and listen i studied with an ayahuascero for years was totally dedicated to the subject and moderated on the ayahuasca forum for years and years, and now i am an editor on the new ayahuasca.com along side dennise mckenna. I have a great love and interest in ayahausca... but its not for me, i feel its for the amazonian people.
                the most interesting thing about ayahuasca is that it captured the western imagination, and the possibilities for healing and growth it could provide, and that other plants could create with the right intention... the early researchers of ayahuasca ethnopharmacology discovered that there were ayahuasca analogs that could be made or fashioned that created a very similar effect.
                they are available but people dont seek them out because they dont have too... they can order the good stuff over the internet no matter what the impact is.
                the world is our oyster right now... but we have to ask if we want to eat it, show some restraint and look for alternatives...
                i think a good ethical strategy right now is to learn how people that work with ayahausca form the working relationship they do with her and see if we can learn to do the same with analogs that are more local or more easily and sustianably produced in our area...
                for example people place more attention on the plant teachers and less on the deita, the dieta is probably one one the most important things to come out of the amazon region because it shows us a way we too can relate to plants.


                "As for me, I don't know really what the answer is to the question of ayahuasca contributing or not to environmental devastation via people travelling to Peru and Brazil and curanderos travelling to the US, Europe and others."

                jav of coarse its contributing! does it require oil? or any other nonrenewable resource or anything that is out sourced in general? yes! the answer is yes! and like i pointed out no matter how small the contribution it all adds up...
                some people say well lets start with some of these other things first then move over to not having to work with ayahuasca... but it seems like making allies of the local plant spirits and forming traditions around them would be a good place to start so that we can learn how to cultivate sustainable relationships with them where we live.

                "As far as consuming plants from far away being detrimental to people's abilities to make meaningful relationships with their bioregion......I don't know. I mean, drinking aya I believe makes people much more in tune with their environments, and in the long run wanting to establish closer links with their own landscape. Do I begrudge them the fact that it took a foreign plant to get them there? Not at all.....I really believe that aya getting around the world is more beneficial than detrimental in the big scheme of things. "

                well honestly thats how it worked for me partially... i dont begrudge myself or the process. if we look at ayahausca as a teacher that goes around the world saying dont depend on me make relationships with where you live and the plants available there, because to work with me costs a large price, then thats one thing, but a lot of what i have seen is people so fully ingrained in global consumerism that they fail to listen to this message.

                "As far as taking responsibility for the death of Iraqi children, I mean, that's just kind of hard to avoid. Unless of course you never use a car, or a bus, or a plane, or a cab, or any electric apparatus (which are often run of fossil fuel based electricity, not hydro), etc. Do you LLB feel responsible for the death of Salmon?"

                its hard to avoid but its not impossible AT ALL, and there are a lot of people working their asses off and dedicating their lives to not doing so. and to be honest i know that i am responsible for the death of salmon as well as salmon habitat. this fact informs my ethics and motivations. if we make the world safe for salmon we make the world healthy for us. did you check out the salmon nation post i put up on my blog that ecotrust is doing... very cool group.

                "But really then, what I want to know for the folks at large, is do you feel aya is teaching you to work more with your local plants also, and connect with your local landscape? Or do you think you will forever have to travel to Peru and back home to get your fill of medicine?"

                it did me, very harshly actually,
                sitting there in my back yard during a ceremony with a south american ayahauscero, anacondas and jaguars and amazonian spirits, and shipibo spirits and icaros i could not fully understand out side of syntax, where is bear where is eagle where is cedar, and sage and fir, and salmon, and porcupine, where is heron, and hawk? and i was shown how we ignore our own world by focusing on the world of another...
                • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

                  Tue, April 1, 2008 - 3:54 PM
                  "i was shown how we ignore our own world by focusing on the world of another... "

                  at the risk of sounding cliche

                  there is only one world

                  one earth

                  and we share it with the shipibos, the bright blue butterflies, the deer, the polar bears, and the electric eels of madagascar.

                  one can use anything to ignore one's world, you can use the presence of spirits to ignore your own healing,

                  but speak for yourself

                  the spirits of the jungle are just as much my "world" as the spirits of the mountains, the snow, the elk and the raven here in montana and i love them equally and as far as im concerned we all have the same mother and it makes little difference where we came from, as long as we're willing to learn about eachothers' differences.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

                    Tue, April 1, 2008 - 4:27 PM
                    so very true rebecca, but your missing my point.
                    yes we are one with this great earth, and the jungle spirits and the spirits of the place of montana are a part of your world... but how much of the spirits of the jungle are a part of your daily experience, what type of relationship dynamic do you have with them in comparision to the other-than-human-persons of your life place?
                    many people say that long distance relationships dont work. ; )
                    and to sound even more cliche and to quote a song ( see if you can name it.) "if you cant be with the one you love love the one your with..."
                    its great to learn about each others differences... true... and globalization and the ease of travel and import/export has shrunk our world considerably so to speak. we can explore the world with ease greater then we ever have before. however doing so is not a sustainable practice and it leaves a large foot print.
                    once again the irony is that we seek the wisdom of people of place, people who have been geographically isolated or economically incapable of leaving their life place for a very long time. An indigenous woman pointed out at a conferance on global warming a few months ago that i attended that we are all people of place, however we have been seeking the wisdom of being people of place with out knowing it.
                    because we have forgotten that we are people of place IMHO. has it ever been essential for the people whos wisdom we seek to travel around the world at the cost of ecological systems and people so that they could achieve the wisdom they have? not really... many seem to have established the wisdom they need to live wholistic lives by staying in one place and establishing a depth of intimacy with that place that we seem to over look as a source of wisdom and knowledge as well as health.

                    • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

                      Tue, April 1, 2008 - 4:37 PM
                      Friends,

                      This is an interesting discussion, on both sides.

                      For me, however, I ultimately trust that people working closely with the Green Elders will follow the guidance they receive through their relationships with these spirits, walking a road that is the one they've been directed to walk.

                      In the end, I think it's wise to be mindful of the problems and pitfalls of proselytizing and trying to convert people to doing or not doing certain things. That's a pattern that's run rampant in modern culture, and one that has also trampled indigenous people around the world.

                      Even the most well meaning efforts, dedicated to the most well meaning causes, become problematic when they're foisted on people as someone everyone should do, rather than something an individual, or group of individuals, has been drawn to.

                      I trust that everyone here is following their guidance, and doing their best to live from that guidance in a good way.

                      Respect,
                      Veg
                    • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

                      Tue, April 1, 2008 - 4:49 PM
                      i hear you, little.
                      i suppose one of the main reasons why i disagree with you is
                      i am presently considering moving to peru
                      and making it my place because i have always felt like montana is beautiful
                      but simply living here year round is not quite sustainable

                      there's always a time durng the winter when everything you are eating is clearly from somewhere else. it''s probably different on the westo coast, but here the growing season is like 3 months long and you really do need a gas-guzzling SUV to get around in the snow, and biodeisel commonly frezes in the cold temps here. i

                      do know a family that lives year-round, quite in harmony with the elements here, but they get snowed in for 6 months out of the year and can't grow their own food because it's too cold, and because they get snowed in, they live very isolated and disconnected from the rest of society, goddess bless 'em. they hunt wild deer and elk for their food..and that life's not for me...

                      i feel similarly about the life i've been offerred here in the US as you may feel about outsourcing ayahuasca. if i keep doing it, i will eventually not be able to ignore how greatly i am adding to the problem.

                      but this discussion of "place" reminds me of the members of the inuit people that were brought to new york city by Robert Perry in 1897.
                      all of them quickly died after arriving, except one boy named minik whose fathers' bones were used by a NY anthropologist and put on display in a museum. when minik , now an adult, found out that his father was not given a proper ceremonial burial, he was enraged with the americans and returned to greenland to be with this tribe that he hadn't seen since he was a boy. but he had adapted to the american culture so much that he was unable to adjust to tribal life again and left. he lived back and forth between the US and Greenland before he died of influenza at the age of 38.

                      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minik_Wallace

                      i think mikik had a very small sense of place, and cultural belonging. he and his family were away from their regular foods, customs, community, water and plants, and i have a theory that this is what killed them.
                      • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

                        Tue, April 1, 2008 - 5:12 PM
                        check it out rebecca

                        www.friendsofthetrees.net/2006_...e.html
                        not to mention that there is a plentifull dmt source growing in montana and its not to far away from plentiful sources of syrian rue. goats head may also grow in montana and may be a source for any ayahausca analogs you may need.

                        also it takes a village to live sustainably, this is what the ecovillage movement is all about...
                        www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-1103009681.html

                        "there's always a time durng the winter when everything you are eating is clearly from somewhere else. it''s probably different on the westo coast, but here the growing season is like 3 months long and you really do need a gas-guzzling SUV to get around in the snow, and biodeisel commonly frezes in the cold temps here."

                        with a properly designed permaculture focused ecovillage this does not have to be the case.

                        "do know a family that lives year-round, quite in harmony with the elements here, but they get snowed in for 6 months out of the year and can't grow their own food because it's too cold, and because they get snowed in, they live very isolated and disconnected from the rest of society, goddess bless 'em. they hunt wild deer and elk for their food..and that life's not for me... "

                        thats not for me either... thus we go back to the importance of the ecovillage.

                        "i feel similarly about the life i've been offerred here in the US as you may feel about outsourcing ayahuasca. if i keep doing it, i will eventually not be able to ignore how greatly i am adding to the problem."

                        will living in peru solve the problem? soon peru who is also oil dependent and global economy dependent will also have to move out of oil dependency and thats going to be pretty hard to be there when that happens...
                        its going to be hard every where... and its getting harder and harder every day with the increase in gas prices. we have an oil based economy... every thing revolves around it... imagine the world with out it and your seeing the future.

                        at any rate you can not just stop adding to the problem with living where your at and setting down deep roots, by establishing and assisting in ecovillages and permaculture living, but you can actually begin to repair the damage that has been done, via bioremediation in permaculture design as well as not supporting a nonsustianable system and forcing people who participate in the global economy to think more creatively...
                        if you want to travel and help with the future transitions we will all be feeling due to the eventual collapse of a global economy learn ecovillage design andd permaculture design, travel around helping people to establish permaculture ecovillages before the eventual collapse of the global oil dependent market.
                        they you get your travel fix as well as making the decision to do so via the permaculture ethic of it being ok to start a project with a nonsustianable resource if it creates a sustianable system.
                        many people in peru are already permaculture experts but south america has been turned into a punching bag for the global economy, its so exploited its ridiculous. helping to make living systems that are not based on previous imperial and colonial and now global market exploitation is really one of the next step in creating benifical change in the world. there are communities all over latin america beging to do just this thing. which is pretty amazing really.
                    • Re: Ayahuasca and Sustainability

                      Tue, April 1, 2008 - 4:53 PM
                      something that i am currently working on is a local foods project. the goal of this project is to take food out of the oil stream and to relocalize our foodshed.
                      it would be interesting to do a local entheogens project for the worlds bioregions, as well as to do a sort of permaculture design process which shows which entheogens can be grown and cultivated within a permaculture process around the world. the point of doing so would be to help people make a more ethical decision as to how they established the healing and guidance they require from the plant teachers, with out having to impact the earth both socially and ecologically.
                      a global/regional entheogens project would be very useful in helping people establish actual relationships of intimacy and depth with out causing harm, and perpetuating the system which is responsible for the harm they wish the plants to heal in the first place.
                      it would be a big project which would require a global effort of entheogen enthusiasts from around the world who also have a passion for relocalization and permaculture.
                      doing so would take entheogens out of the oil stream and out of the destructive system that is harming the earth and her children.
                      many many bioregions are capable of producing ayahausca analogs so that would be a big part of it, and new ayahausca analogs are bing discovered all the time. recently i have heard it said by a friend of christian rastch that pomegranet is a potent source for n,n-dmt.
                      www.floridata.com/ref/p/puni_gra.cfm
                      not sure if its a rumor or what... but i have it on good authority...
                      at any rate... i think that aya-analogs are pretty much the future... why because when its said somthing is nonsustainable that means it can not be sustianed its not just unhealthy for the plantet or not PC, it means we cannot keep doing it for ever. the drinking of ayahausca depends currently on a non renewable resource, which will run out very soon, which will mean that it will be both ecomicaly impossible to continue drinking it as we do today, alternatives will at some point have to be found, and thats really the bottom line, unless some new source of fuel is discovered which can replace oil( which there isnt yet) there is no possible way for us to continue this exploration of other places to get to know our diversity, and there will no longer be a global market place as we know it today, globalization is only temporary, and our freedom to explore it and exploit it is as well...