I've noticed alot of the animists in here believe that the spirit of the plant explicitly reaches out and 'calls' certain people to partake. I was wondering how many of the people in here had an experience to that effect?
That is to say, did aya find you, or did you seek the drink?
That is to say, did aya find you, or did you seek the drink?
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Los Angeles
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Re: A Calling?
Mon, May 12, 2008 - 8:58 PMNice, beautiful thought. I also heard that the plants can communicate their necessary caretaking conditions, and if that, why not just about anything else? I hadn't considered that it found me, but once you mentioned that, it could be looked at from that point of view, and it's a nice thought. I'd like to believe that now.
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Re: A Calling?
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 6:43 AMIn another context, Blaise Pascal wrote:
"You would not seek Me if you had not found Me."
I sought Ayahuasca and the Spirit of it for years before I went to the jungle. Was it all my plan and action, or was Mother Aya pulling me there? I do feel that She has been a part of my life since - checking in on me and introducing or enabling synchronicities that have changed my circumstances.
Does She reach out in other ways to other people? Who knows - perhaps She is just one manifestation of Gaia. Perhaps the Earth itself speaks and sometimes takes action. -
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Re: A Calling?
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 5:05 PMI've heard some people who live down in the Amazon say that they're frustrated with all the 'Shamanic Tourism' going on these days, with New Age Westerners coming down on expensive retreats just to take Ayahuasca. They (the natives I spoke with) felt these people were 'forcing' the relationship to satisfy their curiosity, without necessarily needing any curing. -
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Re: A Calling?
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 5:36 PM"Boutique Shamanism"....
should become a thing of the past. There's compounds charging 1700 for 10 days... others charging 175 USDs per day. These prices are absurd. If those people that can afford it really enjoy this type of "shamanism", they would be better off just buying or renting a copy of "Renegade" and staying at home.
You are not "getting what you paid for", it is impossible. -
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Re: A Calling?
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 7:32 PM""Boutique Shamanism"....
should become a thing of the past. There's compounds charging 1700 for 10 days... others charging 175 USDs per day. These prices are absurd. If those people that can afford it really enjoy this type of "shamanism", they would be better off just buying or renting a copy of "Renegade" and staying at home.
You are not "getting what you paid for", it is impossible."
damn straight allen...
i looked at this subject for a long time...
i knew one curandero in boliva charging 3000$ US for a retreat... ( including a nice shamanic hot tub...) 3000$ equals out to be about 21945$ Bolivian Bolivianos it was a mighty good racket... 1700 us $ is 4710.69 peruvian new sols.... which is an incredible amount of souls really... -
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Re: A Calling?
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 7:47 PM"i knew one curandero in boliva charging 3000$ US for a retreat... ( including a nice shamanic hot tub...)"
Outrageous prices are a drag whenever they appear. I don't like it wherever it crops up. Also the opposite, underpaying a hardworking person to get rich while they barely make it week to week. I just think it's a human failing, a dark side, and all the nuttier when attached to "spiritual services".
Here in Seattle they sell a roof over your head for no less than $400 thousand dollars. I'm a carpenter, and I know it doesn't cost that much for the materials or labor. It's taking an essential component of life and jacking up the price to put one man in debt to make others rich.
It says a lot about the vision of the seller... and maybe a lot about the willingness of the buyer too.
I'd just like people to be kind to each other, and help each other. I do know how that must sound, but I do my best to live up to it. -
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 10:01 AMcg, sounds to me like our only path from destruction. being kind and thinking of the benefit to many rather than the pockets of a few will truly be our salvation.
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 5:54 AM> ""Boutique Shamanism"....
> should become a thing of the past.
> i knew one curandero in boliva charging 3000$ US for a retreat
Well, if he's getting clients, good for him. And good for them as well.
Who are we to tell people what products they should buy at what price? Who are we to judge the reasonability of other people's voluntary exchange of goods?
I don't really mind it if someone gets a bar of chocolate for $100 as long as I can get one for $1. The price of $100 would have been too high for me, but apparently wasn't too high for them, so who cares?
I'm interested in the real deal, others are interested in "Boutique Shamanism". So you guys are saying they don't deserve getting what they want because they (or the product they're buying) are wrong, unspiritual, rich, ridiculos, absurd, or whatever, in *your* judgment?
It's funny how those who don't have money know better how those who do should spend it.
>You are not "getting what you paid for", it is impossible."
Do you really think $3000 is worth to them as much as it is to you?
If they get a week out in the jungle and 3 ceremonies for an hour's wage, are they still not getting what they paid for? -
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 7:31 AM"Who are we to tell people what products they should buy at what price? Who are we to judge the reasonability of other people's voluntary exchange of goods"?
"I don't really mind it if someone gets a bar of chocolate for $100 as long as I can get one for $1. The price of $100 would have been too high for me, but apparently wasn't too high for them, so who cares"?
I'm not telling anyone how to spend their money and I'm not passing judgment on anyone or condemning them.
I'm discussing the idea of exchange. Weather related to Ayahuasca, or chocolate or housing.
The system is out of whack, unless you think whatever happens is "all good" and "meant to be" or "what we deserve".
I think we have a right to question the type of exchange that the $ dominated culture in the world would have us accept as "reasonable".
It's a question of balance and equality. -
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Re: A Calling?
Mon, May 26, 2008 - 3:54 PMI can not reasonably equate matters of the spirit with any amount of money. It seems that there is a contradiction of terms in asking a price for a deeply profound experience. Somewhere in the back of my mind is a phrase something to this effect: Love offers willingly and asks nothing in return. In my mind I see offering these things with no thought of cost as a matter of course, and that to truly ask anything of the individual to whom the gift is given is a disservice to the essence that entheogens, or love, truly are. Somehow, things always come back around. -
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Re: A Calling?
Mon, May 26, 2008 - 4:31 PMcatalyst, and if there is a cost, let that money or offering go to the greatest good, yes? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, June 4, 2008 - 4:43 PM" What is the greatest good? "
whatever is larger than one's own benefit. the good of those who need it most. helping women and children in the greatest need. that which preserves and does not destroy. the benefit of the forest (amazonas las pulmones del mundo) and the people who live in the forest.
or, more particularly, what to you is the greater good?
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THE ONLY CALLING IS LONG DISTANCE...COLLECT
Tue, June 10, 2008 - 9:09 PMThanks, Mariela, for your input on "boutique shamanism", that in which the sole purpose is to separate the seeker from his money. There's too much of that going on. A lot of people become agitated at the thought that there is something wrong with earning lots of money. Most of the seekers are die-hard capitalists, who worship the dollar as much as Ayahuasca.....even more so. I find money and shamanism don't really mix well. Ojala que la conferencia tenga mucho exito este anyo. Saludale al senyor para mi., y que todo vaya muy tranquilo en Morona.
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Re: A Calling?
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 5:44 PMI'm not sure you can be alive and not need some curing.
All the hard knocks don't always show up, some are on the inside.
Sometimes curiosity boosted is the answer to a lack of imagination that can be spiritually debilitating.
Western culture gets under your skin when you grow up in it, and sometimes the simple differences in South American culture can reopen a sense of new possibilities in ways of being for someone. Being buried under the cultural influences of any culture usually calls for some curing, even if only accepting the odd differences in the cultural perspectives that abound, and trying to see past them to the heart of the person in front of you.
Peel enough layers and we all have little Amazon rivers flowing in us and carrying blood to a heart that we can often literally loan to each other if were done using it.
Obnoxious cultural baggage is no reason not to see into the heart of things.
I apologize to all my Southern brothers and sisters on behalf of all my Northern brothers and sisters, and visa/versa, but ask that you see past our obvious problems and help a brother/sister anyway if you can. It's really kind of you to do so, and your generosity of spirit will always be appreciated. Should I ever run into your cousin up here in the North, I promise to treat him/her with respect, and help if I can.
www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content -
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 5:54 AMoh yeah es cierto llaman sus amantes!
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 8:13 AMthere can be truth to this however the tourist do bring lots of money- an energy the locals crave and since they are spending this large amout of money they must really want (need) the experience. I wish i could afford to do that. -
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 1:56 PMwhen there is profiteering off of any thing people collectively suffer from it.
fair trade coffee for example benefits people collectively much more then coffee that is not fair trade...
profiting off of peoples ignorance doesn't help any one just as profiting off of war does not help any one and profiting off of sickness doesn't help any one.
a teacher or healer that profits off of people and helps them teachers people that its ok to profit off of illness and ignorance. In My Experience.
those are just my personal ethics speaking how ever... not every one feels the same way... some people think its ethicly fine to profit off of another sickness or ignorance... guess im a socialist lol...
as far as the money brought in by tourists... that has been said to set an imbalance in local economies as well as in local traditions. its been said that the interesting in curanderismo by westerners has inspired people to continue the tradition because of the money it brings but at the same time this changes the dynamic... the motivation to be a curandero is then not to heal but to profit, not to teach but to profit. Ive seen this first hand and i have seen what it does... no bueno.
ecotourism has this same issue.
I once thought tourism was great because it brought money into a town... but i was corrected by an elder who pointed out to me that this creates a dependency at the cost of self sufficiency.
as far as the calling is concerned not to derail this thread... i think that in our consumer driven commodity societies in the west there is a difference between being called to a medicine and just going out and buying something because its novel and out there to be "consumed"... you can pick up a tourist trap bottle of ayahuasca at the Cuzco market cheap.. like a bag of MMs at the 7/11 but i dont think this is answering to a calling...
there was a good documentery posted recently by a guy who went all over latin america including the town maria sabina lived in... thats where he went first and he saw how the impact of mushroom curanderimso tourism since the 60s has impacted the place the traditions and the culture there. If the people who had a major calling to that medicine then before ayahuasca became all the rage really had been answering an authentic calling from spirit i am some how suspicious that the impact would have been so drastic to that place and the people there.
ive seen people with some pretty perceivably authentic callings to the medicine and its an incredible thing to behold.. the commitment and sacrifice they have had to make, the dedication to the calling and the over all effects of following spirit... its awe inspiring... to be honest and i think quite rare...
ive had callings to things in the past but it ended up just being gas....
: )
I cant say i was called to the medicine... i can say i called it to myself out of desire... and i learned a great deal from that.
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 3:09 PMI guess Aya called me. I was unexpectedly invited to a ceremony after a few days of fasting on water during a spiritual quest.
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Re: A Calling?
Mon, May 19, 2008 - 3:34 PMI have to say i was called to the medicine...i clicked on a link to an ayahuasca website without even having heard of ayahusaca, and when it opened i started to sweat and tremble, and immediately i knew it was something i had to do. though i had no idea what it was. So i go to Brazil, drink ayahuasca, come home and two months later i find out i have cancer. After drinking ayahuasca, NOT SO SCARY :)
I also have to comment on this "boutique shamanism". I'm obviously in the minority here, but personally i think its wrong to discredit someone elses experiences with the plant because it was done in a different setting than in the middle of the jungle. The people that that go to these retreats, deserve the same amount of respect as anyone else, if they are going for the right reasons Healing is healing... just my 2 cents...
Shel
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Re: A Calling?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 6:24 AMi had heard of ayahuasca just a little and really knew nothing and had no interest. then last year i had a powerful and overwhelming vision to go to peru. i had no money and no idea how. i was also inspired by vision to fast for twenty one days. someone i had not seen for fifteen years "happened upon" my myspace blog and contacted me. he asked what i was up to and i told him i was preparing to go to iquitos but had no idea how financially. he said he would help and wired a significant amount of money into my account. even with all this going on i didn't think about ayahuasca or want to drink it. by the time i left for iquitos i had been fasting for over two months, compelled by vision and i don't know what else. even when i was in iquitos i only went to ceremony because i heard the shaman speaking and he was so very very humble and grateful for the medicine and all plant medicine and truly sincere, i thought i would give it a try. during ceremony he told me i had energy caught in my lungs (had been asthmatic since childhood and almost died several times, in er constantly and intensive care). he said it could be cleared with treatment in a matter of a few weeks. so i followed him to ecuador and in one week had no need for my maintenance inhaler and have not been bothered with any symptoms in the year since. afterward i gave myself to her guidance and can honestly say with all my heart that she guides me in my work devoted to the amazon and its people which when i asked her for direction and guidance is what i had been instructed to do.
if that isn't a calling i don't know what is! lol -
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Re: A Calling?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 10:47 AM"I also have to comment on this "boutique shamanism". I'm obviously in the minority here, but personally i think its wrong to discredit someone elses experiences with the plant because it was done in a different setting than in the middle of the jungle. The people that that go to these retreats, deserve the same amount of respect as anyone else, if they are going for the right reasons Healing is healing... just my 2 cents... "
your missing the point...
no one is discrediting any ones experiences with the plant... just those that are providing the experiences in a way that takes advantage of people economically ( among other ways). Ive seen people have amazing healing experiences with the plant, and i have also seen these same people who seek the plant and have it provided to them in slightly unthoughtful ways perpetuate problems int he world... which could be avoided... -
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Re: A Calling?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 12:30 PMI don't know man, I mean, I personally find "boutique shamanism" distasteful, but really, at the end of the day, those guys can charge whatever they want for whatever service they want, and if people willingly pay and go there, and then feel like they got their money's worth, I just don't see anything wrong with that. There's different approaches that the medicine will use to make it peoples' hearts. Maybe those folks would never have found the medicine without the boutique guys. Maybe one of those persons will change the world someday, or now live a full and beautiful life thanks to the medicina.....who's to say, God does, after all, work in mysterious way.....
My .02 anyways!
:) -
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Re: A Calling?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 1:06 PMJav-
I think there's a lot of wisdom and compassion in your words, as always.
Respect,
Veg -
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Re: A Calling?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 7:15 PMMuch respect to you as well Veg, thank you for your kind words.
:) -
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Re: A Calling?
Thu, May 22, 2008 - 4:15 AMJav-
"Much respect to you as well Veg, thank you for your kind words. "
Thanks brother. Much appreciated.
Respect,
Veg
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Re: A Calling?
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 3:13 PMI agree that people are taken advantage of too often while seeking ayahuasca, i was just expressing my reluctance to stereotype people because of how they were drawn there. jav articulated what i was getting at much better than i came across, really that the plant reaches out to people in strange ways, and who are we to judge it? I think as long as the intention is pure of those involved, both seekers and providers, the external circumstances become less important... -
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 12:09 AMjav is right and thats true...
as allways though i have an over occupation with ethics... so pardon me a bit...
my hope by posting on the subject is that people who feel a calling are aware enough not to support this sort of boutique shamanry... and weekend warrior BS... which is marketed and sold very unethically. you buy it you support it. thats all im saying...
and i have to mention again though that the vine is ambivalent and reaches out to brujos and curanderos alike... i am sure many brujos have a calling to be brujos, and may fulfill an ecological niche in and of itself...
and i also want to point out in the case of those that support boutique shamanry as we are calling it... be sure the calling your hearing isn't the echo of your own voice...
ive got compassion for those folks that support these guys as well it just aint as benevolent as javs... mostly because i used to be one, so i speak from my own foolishness. -
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 9:30 AM>>be sure the calling your hearing isn't the echo of your own voice...
many times she uses our own voice, as well as all the echoes... you can do worse than listening to your own voice... in fact she has shown me this.... it is your true voice that will show you where to focus your attentions... and intentions.
>>ive got compassion for those folks that support these guys as well it just aint as benevolent as javs... mostly because i used to be one, so i speak from my own foolishness.
respect the foolishness ... forgive the folly ... the fool lives from a place of innocence ... childlikeness ... the open heart will hear the calls and echoes of all the love with in creation. -
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 9:44 AMas far as being called ... yes i was.
after helping a destitute schizophrenic woman one day, she said to me upon our parting ways that the "vine" would find me soon...
i, never having heard of this "vine" ... thought it to be some form of mescaline... (being of native north american lineage) ..and some of her nonsensical ramblings...
...several months later while with a friend, i saw a similar woman i was giving healing to ... this reminded me of the first... and i told my friend the story of that day, jestingly finishing with the so called vine she said i would find ... where upon my friend grabbed something next to us and said "you mean this vine?"
lol.
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 11:38 AMyeah stella... i know... im not hearing any thing i dont allready know...but i dont think im being heard either...
many times she does use our own voice... but some times its just your ego... and you know what im talking about...
and yes there are fools and children... and then there are those that should no better... and you know what i mean...
for some reason im not sure that british reality TV producers really heard the calling or realized that ayahausca was just really in vouge right now.... jesus... -
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 12:18 PMyeah little... jesus is in vogue ...and you can bet he heard the calling too!
lol...
let's hope he didn't call those british dudes! pfew! he's got enough to set straight as it is!
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 12:19 PM"but some times its just your ego... "
and sometimes the things we say to others are most intended for ourselves. -
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 12:40 PMStella Maris-
"and sometimes the things we say to others are most intended for ourselves."
That's the truth, and a good lesson to learn.
For me, I try to be careful when it comes to question other people's calling. That's really not my business. That's between them and the plant spirits, and their Ancestors. I don't pretend to be in a place to know who's "legitimately" called or not, and don't feel qualified to judge a "real" call from a "false" one.
People find the road how they find it. That's good enough for me.
Respect,
Veg -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 12:45 PMi couldn't agree more veg! :)
blessings! i always enjoy your peaceable and wise expressions.
thank you!
it's all good enough for me! ... it IS ALL go(o)d! -
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 12:47 PMStella Maris-
Thank you for the kindness. The feelings are mutual.
Respect,
Veg -
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 3:12 PMI definitely felt a calling. I initially heard about ayahuasca at my first Burning Man in 2006. I met Alex Grey at the Entheon Village, as well as Roberto Venosa, Martina Hoffman, and Mark Henson. Their paintings are so inspirational, and I noticed the word Ayahuasca in some of their titles. I asked one of them what it was, and they said she was a great plant teacher.
I didn't think much more about it then, other than during a strong journey through the desert that Friday I had an overwhelming urge to be somewhere GREEN, somewhere lush. I pictured myself in the Amazon, in the midst of the rainforest, and realized that while the desert is a fun place, I need to be around nature and life if I'm going to be 'connecting' to my surroundings.
So I started planning a road trip down to South America. When right around Thanksgiving my two friends who were going to drive with me got in some trouble and couldn't make it, I reevaluated my plans. Driving through Mexico alone is too dangerous, so I called up my airline and asked if I could fly to Peru anytime soon. They said yes, tomorrow.
The next day I was in Lima. I met a lady on the plane who introduced me to her sister and her sister's boyfriend (both my age), and they showed me all around the City of Kings. The one day I didn't hang out with them I was sitting in my hostel. Something told me to go down the street. There was a bar there that I'd been given a little packet at with some coca leaves inside. When I went in, it was pretty crowded, mostly people from a company or something.
In the back room was a group of ladies in their forties. I introduced myself and started talking, and in conversation one of them mentioned that she had an ecovillage in the jungle. She doesn't even live in Lima, and almost never goes to bars. She was there because her friend was doing a show of her paintings. Paintings of Ayahuasca visions.
I snapped back to speaking with Roberto Venosa about Ayahuasca, and realized this lady Pierina was talking about the same thing. She invited me to her ecoaldea and said she'd introduce me to some curanderos and ayahuasqueros if I'd like.
A couple days later I was in the jungle, sitting in a circle at Corto Maltes, listening to icaros and embarking on a whole new path in life.
A few weeks later San Pedro reached out to me as well, but thats another story. -
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Re: A Calling?
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 4:16 PMNice Nick, that's definitely a cool tale. Funny how life winds us around to certain points.
I supposes Ayahuasca was a calling for me as well, 'cause I certainly didn't go out looking for her. Met some folks who clued me into some ceremonies and just started going on a relatively regular basis. She was just there when I needed her, and continues to be a part of my life, though not center stage necessarily. I'm certainly glad she sent out a little signal to me though....
As for compassion with the boutique shamanism folks, I think really the underlying factor for that is that I think those folks are really just paying more for a high end vacation then for the medicine, though I don't know what the conditions are at those places. I say that because I used to work (many moons ago.....) as a fly-fishing guide in Patagonia, and people paid absurd amounts of money to come down and fish for a week. ABSURD amounts of money. But they dug it, had a good time, got quality fishing done, VIP treatment and went home with a smile. They weren't coerced into spending money or sold some snake oil to get them there......But anyways......
Yes, she calls. Don't all the medicines?
:)
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