It is an interesting point..
How people learn..
It is the power of the idea.. a form of magic that comes from the ancients..
It is the most natural thing.. because every being interacts with their surroundings..
It learns from the nature that surrounds it.
You can see it in small eco-systems.. How things interact and how they form a perfect circle in sustaining each other..

It has always been...
How homo-sapiens got rid of the neanderthals..
How the Greeks learned from the Egyptians. And how the Romans took over a lot of the gods and philosophy from them.
How pagan rituals still find their way in modern life..
How the words in the Bible have been interpreted, and have been re- and re-interpreted by many souls..
How democracy spreads.. as if it is the only option...

When I look at America I am struck with a feeling of dualism..
It's history is not pretty.. harsh.. full of blood and hate...
But beautiful things also... great music.. great movies... a symbol for freedom...
Inside the machine lie broken hearts..
American people need to be healed most of all..
And this post shows they grab the methods the land offers and has offered.
It learns from local history.. spirits of the land...
Because western civilisation is not natural...
What I mean... the humans that inhibit the cities are often disconnected from nature...
When the city is a habitat, the mind becomes used to this model...
That is what funny in modern culture... being street-wise.. is a model...
But when one is not aware of the model.. one becomes a model...
Instead of keeping the model as a mode...
There is a lot to say about it..
But it stays a philosophy... just another idea...

I stick to some words fom one of my heroes Lenny Bruce
Who is an American by the way..
"It is not about 'what should be'.. It's about 'what is'.."

I see a truth in there that is fundamental for freeing the mind..

Steve - I totally missed that you were just writing a funny anecdote and thought you were going for the deeper meaning, or making a point of sorts. Thanks for your response. I've got the article bookmarked and will read it tonight or tomorrow. Thanks again for your response.

:)

Yes. that is so sadly true. I used to work with a group that owned some land outside of L.A. and they occasionally brought inner city teens there for classes. Many had never seen the ocean or stars in the sky or a tree growing in nature. We're talking about 15 miles distance.

Interesting, interesting. I can't help smiling when here in the Ecuadorian Amazon a group of gringo shaman apprentices with necklaces and bracelets from seeds and teeth in rclothes from Otavalo comes back from a trip to a sacred power spot, exchanging words in Quichua they have learned, smelling like jungle, fire and Ayahuasca, and suddenly they meet a group of young indigenous Kichwa, similar but clothed in the western fashion, hair full of grease, perfumed, with their cellulars playing loud dance music, not knowing enough kichwa to understand :-) The look in their eyes, I wonder whats running in their head. In other words, I feel that giving example is very important. Showing interest too.

(Richard, I love your story about the White people stealing the Mars people their land :-))

Hi Embrace,

Once again I praise you for your love and energy in forming Amazonistas and in no way do my comments relate to Amazonistas and your work there. I remember that you mentioned that you don’t believe you have done very much but truly you have. You are a conduit for a great and loving vision and you have materialized this powerful vision with words that have the potential of reaching millions of people in our world and changing reality on a very large scale. Please do not undervalue your contributions or compare them to anyone else. You are the voice for many.

I believe we share many of the same values, respect, humility, gratitude. We do have slightly different expressions, and I believe different expressions actually create much of the beauty we find in our world. Indeed our expressions such of ideas, respect, honor, and humility, might be even more different than we imagine.

Yes, there were a few things that MJ wrote that raised questions including his not mentioning the name of his teacher. I’m not sure why this was omitted and I’m not sure that it lacks respect. Perhaps he had been asked not to mention his maestros name, perhaps he thought that an American audience would be more accessible with the words he used, and yes perhaps he got caught in the traps that we have all fallen into where we loose perspective and humility. I guess my point is that we don’t know until we ask and making assumptions most likely leads to defending them, a stance we often avoid if we approach the matter with curiosity rather than anger. Wrong assumptions often puts people on the defensive which is usually an aggressive stance. I must commend MJ that his defense was quite reasonable, and in my book the best proof so far that his heart is in the right place.

The same goes for his statement "heal any and all afflictions". I find this rather enthusiastic to say the least and I am curious with questions more that offended. Part of me empathies with this his enthusiasm even though my reality is perhaps more tempered.

As to your questions:

I have many ideas about water and waste in the Amazon, Peru or any developing country. And when I say “I have many ideas” please understand that I believe all ideas are universal. To me ideas are gifts, they float around like radio signals until someone with the particularly shape antenna receives them – often many people at one time. I don’t own ideas that come to me and they are of very little value until they take a material manifestation. The mastery of idea manifestation is certainly valuable but it too is a gift, and quickly becomes useless or even harmful if the source is forgotten. You have demonstrated that gift of in forming Amazonistas, a beautiful manifestation indeed.

When you ask “Think about it, what is to be done with plastic in the Amazon?” I immediately think about plastic bags. The larger reality of what to do with plastic in the Amazon poses the same question we are asking ourselves about what to do with plastic in our world. It certainly is a crazy tangled mess we have created.

I am always struck by the complexity of plastic bags in Peru. Here are people who have, since time immemorial, thought of the river as both the provider and the acceptor. Tradition is to throw all waste into the river, and until recently, the river it played its part with out much fuss. But now plastic bags in rivers are the cause of much despair from the glacial agricultural field of the Cordillera Blanca, where they block stone irrigation canals, to the Amazon basin. We are talking about changing the way people have been living and thinking for thousands of years. And with that we are asking them to change the way they see their world, a world where everything was connected, to a world where some things are better left out. To me this is quite complex because these new ideas bring with them the energy and thought processes of the “civilized” world. The energy of “some things are better left out” is the very energy of separateness, the energy that many of us are hoping to change back to what we all once understood to be the energy of connection. It’s a double edged sword, another complex twisted mess of realities.

So many cities and countries are banning plastic bags that it really makes sense that this should happen in Peru and other South American countries.

www.planetark.org/dailynews.../story.htm

Certainly they have the right to benefit from the lessons we have learned even more than the mistakes we have made.

I don’t know much about making rubber but isn’t the Amazon the home of latex? Can’t rubber be used to line wooden barrels or baskets and used to store water? It seems like a long shot but there may be opportunities to actually use latex for the betterment of local societies.

I know even less about waste but I do know that you can drink your pee:
brittaandrebecca.org/drinkpee/

compost your shit:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting_toilet
www.aselfsufficientlife.com/comp....html
www.jenkinspublishing.com/sawdu...t.html

and drink gray water:
www.builditsolar.com/Project...ater.htm

All of these are just ideas and mean very little without manifestation and I understand that the people whom we are talking about are extremely poor. I can count on my hands the number of hours I have spent in Lower Belen and I found it both fascinating and frightening. The extent and depth of poverty is as dramatic as any I have ever experienced and yet I sensed a warmth not found on our own streets.

Many tourist visit Belen Market and stand looking down at the stairs to Lower Belen but very few actually visit this area and its people.

Another idea would be to get your Amazonista site listed on the websites of major Iquitos hotels and restaurants. Maybe work a deal where visitors receive a modest discount on food or services if they bring a suitcase of school goods or cloths. Or even work with LAN Airlines to see if they will put a link to your site on their website and offer discounts on extra luggage to Iquitos if it is for Amazonista.

I wish I had more time to spend on this and other wonderful visions but I am forced as we all are to choose “my brightest diamond”; the one vision I feel most passionate about (which of course saving the world in my own way). Its certainly a complex world and it often takes all of us playing together to make any sense of it.

Best wishes,



David

Hi all,

I have been following this thread and inserted the "And the Native Indian said to the white man ...." which was btw loosely taken from the documentary 'White Shamans and Plastic Medicine Men'. No offence meant.

Anyways, that is not what I wanted to talk about. After reading people's comments about MJ and having him explain himself etc. I'm surprised nobody has asked the colour of his underwear....and I'm starting to ask myself: What do we all want from MJ? Why all this steam rolling and encouragement with mixed feelings? I admit I thought ...Oh no, another white shaman, just what the world needs.
But why? Why are so many of us so suspicious? MJ could tell us ad nauseum how many plants he has dietado, how many years experience he has and put up loads of photos on his page.
Would he be more credible then?
Are there a set rigid rules to follow when it comes to this forum to gain people's approval as a shaman or shamanic practitioner (does it really matter what it's called)?
I understand that people are curious about a 'new' shaman and want to know more about his experience but after reading the posts it seems he really has to prove himself to you lot.
Are you the enlightened ones that he has to convince?

What comes into mind is what an old shaman in Peru told me: The gringos discuss too much instead of just putting their egos aside and feel with their hearts.

I'd say: Look into MJ's eyes and find all the answers to your questions.

Con mucho amor,

Celeste

Just wanted to let everybody know that I had added a date to the retreat, September 12 to 27.